After having played SotI at GenCon, last saturday I ran my first game of SotI. I’m completely blown away, especially by the way the moves link into each other. On several occasions all I did was introducing one greedy NPC into a static situation, and two or three snowballed dice rolls later nothing was stable anymore. It was really wonderful.
Still, a couple questions came up which I do not yet have good answers for. I would be grateful for your views.
1) At several occasions my players missed manipulation-moves. This is especially valid for male characters, who seem to have no way to
a) impress women
b) impose their “natural authority” on others
But the problem is basically the same when women deal with each other – all moves we found to be relevant were female moves aimed at male characters.
2) Our Goði had an interesting move going for him: His player chose “Forbidden seiðr”, allowing him to take any female move.
He decided to take “When you lie with a man to conceive a child…”
How would you handle that?
For 1, follow the fiction. If a move isn’t engaged, a move isn’t engaged.
For 2, I’d ask the player why he chose that move. Maybe the Goði is actually a woman. Maybe the Goði wishes he was a woman. Maybe he just really wants a child. Maybe your player chose it just to be a jerk.
Hmm… That’s what we did – but basically everybody at the table who had previous experience with AW missed the moves. Some people (including myself) were not that happy about the GM fiat this approach calls for in interactions with NPCs.
Gregor Vuga would you mind explaining the rationale behind not having such moves?
So when playing Apocalypse World, what do you do when a move isn’t engaged? Do that.
If somebody pushes really hard, they may be doing a forbidden thing or tempting fate as well.
It’s not that I want moves for everything. But specificly “seduce or manipulate” has made a tremendous difference in how I (and basically all players I have asked about it) perceive social interaction especially with NPCs. Basically, where in most games “Convincing an NPC” was a prize granted or withheld solely by the GM, in AW it became something the players can reach for and actively achieve. On the other hand, I as MC prefer to be led by the rules and surprised by the dice on this.
“Tempting Fate” is a thought that has actually crossed my mind. It seemed to make sense when asking a far more powerful man for something – but it hardly seems justifiable f.e. when a man tells his kids to not leave their home while he is gone.
Have a little faith that the moves are structured the way they are for solid reasons.A good point of reference and inspiration in regard to why the gendered moves work the way they do would be Laxdæla saga.
In your example, the father can tell his (presumably adult) children not to leave. If a son does anyway, his honor is in question. If a daughter does anyway, she’s doing a forbidden thing (two, perhaps – defying her father and wandering around alone). If they are NPCs, they just do what they do. Is there a reason for them to disobey? As GM do you have a hard move tucked away? No matter what from the father’s player’s POV it is just fictional positioning.
I don’t think it’s a lack of faith, rather a lack of understanding. This question didn’t come up while I read the rules, it is the feedback I got from my group after playing (and so far, I agree with them).
I don’t doubt there are good reasons – I just don’t get them.
The way you reference “doing a forbidden thing” – is that a move I don’t know about? I couldn’t find it in the rules.
It is (or was?) a core female move.
All the female moves in the Sept. 4th version are:
– When you entice a man
– When you lie with a man to conceive a child
– When you raise your voice and talk sense
– when you goad a man into action
I can’t even find anything that might have replaced “Doing a forbidden thing”.
It sounds interesting, though.
A really fast answer because I don’t have time for more: the rationale behind how the moves are structured and fit together was (in most cases) to accentuate the rigid and strict gender dynamics that permeate the sagas. The game invites you to break them, but that might be only satisfying in the long term.
As for missing “manipulate” moves, look to Bonds and spending them. If you spend bonds with someone, you get to ask the “read a person” questions from AW, which gives you leverage for manipulating them. The unstated assumption is that if you have leverage in the fiction as a player, then you can manipulate them successfully.
If that’s not satisfactory, here’s a (shabby) custom move: “*When you have emotional or material leverage over someone*, they will give into your demands as long as you produce some convincing evidence or pledge.”
Oh, and the “conceive a child” move that the Gođi can take? 300% intentional. Play to find out!
Doing a forbidden thing isn’t explicitly a female move any more but tempting fate should work in cases where you feel such breaking of social rules is particularly significant.
As someone getting ready to run a campaign, this thread is super helpful.
Gregor Vuga Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand the general idea now (although I’m not sure how to translate bonds into manipulation more or less directly). I’ll address it with my players next time I get to play it and I’ll let you know what comes out of it.
And I don’t think the gender dynamics are only satisfying in the long run – as you can see from my second question it is what players immediately start playing with. In both games I played so far, there was a shield-maiden, and both chose “Rebellious”.
On the other hand, when I played it at GenCon, I simply loved “goading men into action”. It’s kind of unintuitive that this is only possible from a woman to a man (especially as there seems to be no female counterpart for “when your honor is in question”).
I wrote a really long reply, but I’m only going to share it with Myles Tempestrider privately. If we hash something out that I feel is worth sharing to the wider community we can post it here later.