I’ve been watching a few actual play sessions online, and listening to podcasts, and one thing that has cropped up (which is likely to be a concern in future sessions) is NPCs acting against the PCs. So far I’ve been letting the PCs fight amongst themselves, and to manipulate minor NPCs but in establishing Menaces and Threats I’ve got NPCs that might be active rather than reactive.
One of the sessions I listened to had the MC rolling for the Moves of a Vampiric NPC which, as I understand it, isn’t how the rules are set out. However, there don’t seem to be any basic moves for PCs to resist NPC actions (bar the Hold Steady move, which is a little limited in scope). Has anyone knocked together any moves that allow the PCs to defend themselves from what would normally be MC Hard Moves (or the result of Moves the NPCs would have if they were PCs), allowing the dice rolling and risk to remain in player hands?
I have to admit that an expanded section on sample custom moves for NPCs would be really handy in terms of allowing the MC to bring out an appropriate NPC on the fly.
I’m playing a Chosen in our current game, which ramps up the external threat. In some ways I wish I wasn’t, the game has so much to say about PC-PC interactions.
One thing you might do is what Torchbearer does; the NPC presents themselves as a challenge, but the PC still gets the chance to decide how they’re going to wriggle out of it. If that goes poorly, the NPC gets to escalate to their preferred hard move.
The system kind of works like that at as the moment, I suppose. It would be nice to see the PCs be able to respond to someone threatening with violence in ways other than Lashing Out first, for example, or using the mature move of Intervening, which makes no sense if you’re the victim. or to give another example give the NPC the ability to Turn a PC on, without the PC jumping in to Turn Them On or Manipulate them first.
It’s not impossible to simply swap around the results of a Move, I suppose. So if the player rolls 7-9 the result is a mixed success, but judged from the perspective of the NPC. A 6 or lower means the MC makes a Hard Move based on the usual 10+ reults, and a 10+ maybe allows the PC to take a +1 Forward against the NPC? It just seems a little clunky, and not something easy to summarise for all occasions in a quick print out.
I was wondering if there’d be a way to create a sort of catch all resist Move (for each stat) that limits the sorts of results, by virtue of the PCs being the ‘heroes’, and somewhat unique, and NPCs being support characters. But maybe that’s needlessly complicated.
I’d just like to add that it’s not something I’d doing much of. Most of my NPCs will be reactive, responding to the PC moves as dictated by the dice. But there are some NPCs who are big bads who will have abilities comparable to the PCs, and there will be times that they might want to take the initiative, to launch an attack, to seduce a PC to ‘the dark side’ or just generally use unique Skin moves like Hexes, that I figure PCs should get a chance to resist rather than get a warning and automatic Hard Move if they don’t immediately try to hide.
You have the ability to make custom moves for your menaces… Are you doing that? Those moves should still not be rolled on the PCs… A NPC can be still be active without preemptively rolling.
Oh, yes, but I’ve only created a single unique custom move for each, not taken into account the full arsenal that each Basic Move and Skin encompasses. The PCs are still largely unaware of what is going on behind the scenes, so I’ve not really had the chance to employ those moves yet. Still, in the name of remaining feral I could always rewrite those.
So the custom moves aren’t meant to replicate or replace everything in Basic and Skin moves…
Let me ask you this way: what is an example from your play that you wanted to do and couldn’t?
No, I know – that’s why I’m wondering how to replicate those. They’re pretty basic interactions that an NPC should be able to access in their interactions with PCs.
It hasn’t happened yet but how, for example, would I handle an NPC who wants to manipulate a PC, whether that be via Turning Them On or Vampiric Hypnosis? Or how, for example, do you play out an enraged NPC who wants to attack a PC with a fire axe. The default assumes some sort of Hard Move, such as Inflicting Harm as established, but this works best if the character ignores the immediate threat and tries to do something (like turn tail and run), rather than trying to resist the threat (such as using willpower to resist a Vampire’s charms, or blocking the attack with a pool cue or something).
So in either case, you just narrate it starting. The vampire starts to lure them in or gets hypnotic eyes or whatever it is you’re trying to do. The MC doesn’t need a move to do something unless it is a hard move.
You can proceed from here through different layers of aggressiveness through fictional positioning.
A soft low aggression move would be you saying: “He’s trying to Turning You On. What do you do?” The player then can use any of their moves to respond. They can Hold Steady and resist it. They can Shut the Vampire Down, they can Lash Out and punch him. They can Run Away.
Still a soft move but a bit harder: “He’s about to turn you on. Roll to Hold Steady.” and follow the roll.
Sill a soft move but with an NPC with a custom move. “He’s trying to use his Vampire Hypnosis to Turn You On. Roll Hold Steady at a disadvantage (-1).”
Still a soft move but with an NPC with mechanical backup: “He’s turning you on and since you’re already Horny (Condition) Roll at a -1 disadvantage”. or “He’s burning his string on you to turn up the heat. Roll Hold Steady at as a disadvantage (-1)” or both! (disadvantage -2).
Hard move: “He just turned you on. What does that feel like/look like on screen?”
Also don’t forget about the bribe MC move: “He’s trying to turn you on. I’ll give you experience if you go with it.”
Same with the Fire Axe:
“She’s coming at you with a flaming axe. What do you do?” (player can do any: Run Away, Lash Out, pull a gun and Shut her Down”)
“The axe is coming down on top of your head. Lash out or be hit.”
“The axe is coming down. It blurs with unnatural speed (custom move), Lash out at a Disadvantage.”
“The axe comes down, and you’re already Terrfied (condition) Hold Steady to be able to do anything at all.” (also this but harder: The axe comes down and she looks like a demon out of hell (spend string, apply condition) you’re Terrified Hold Stead to be able to do anything at all.”
“She cleaves you with the fire axe. It burns like hell. Take two harm.” (hard move).
See? All active NPC actions with the rolls on the PC not you, and all different levels of mechanically supported pressure.
Heh. Fire axe in this example is the type of axe used in emergencies, such as fires, rather than a flaming axe. 🙂
I think these work in some instances, as I’d considered the available Moves prior to my question, but they do seem to be somewhat limiting. Maybe it’s a case of being very broad in interpreting what the various Moves do.
Those you’ve got time to prepare against give you more scope – let’s look at my attack with a fire axe, for example. Assuming, given the examples above, I don’t want to Lash Out or Run Away. Shut Someone Down can be used to reduce someone’s power on you, or give them a condition, so if you wrestle with them – resist the attack by blocking or dodging – but wish to still engage in them, you’re effectively Shutting Them Down, denying them their desire. In a more broader sense Manipulate an NPC will allow you to use Hot to skirt around a person, even if he’s trying to kill you with an axe, maybe indulging in some banter as you do so. Arguably you could Turn Them On too, if you think seduction will work – it won’t stop them coming at you with an axe, and would probably require some good reasoning, but will give you leverage. Hold Steady suggests you’re keeping on your current course despite reservations, but maybe allows you to stare down your attacker or better assess the situation, with the threat still looming…
Okay, so this situation DOES give you a whole handful of ways to react, if you’ve got the time to consider your alternatives: fight (by Lashing Out or Shutting Down), flight (by Running Away) or by trying to out manuever your opponent (Manipulate a PC). If I had to call it, I’d say that the two Cold moves are the closest to ‘resisting’ an NPC attack move as I was trying to find one. Shutting Someone Down will, on a 10+, ‘expose a character’s weakness, reduce the power they hold over you, or gain power over them’ and is about giving Conditions, or Strings – suggesting an instinctive response to overcome an attacker. Holding Steady, on a 10+, is about keeping your cool and getting rid of Conditions, or learning something about your situation (asking questions or gaining a +1 Forward), but at the risk of being Terrified, so is perhaps a more reflective attempt to keep from being hurt and trying to understand who or what is attacking you.
Similarly, if an NPC attempts to turn a PC on, or use some sort of Skin move to manipulate a PC (like a Witch’s Hexes), it seems likely that the PC would only be able to resist by literally attempting to Shut Down the NPCs attempt, or to Hold Steady, and try to assess the situation as it happens.
My two reservations here then are:
1. Cold PCs become super resistant to everyone, regardless of whether they are targeted with charm, insults, violence or magic, whilst a tough (Volatile) guy isn’t able to defend against physical attacks any easier than he can defend against anything else, despite it being an area of expertise (with similar problems for a Hot social butterfly, or someone in touch with their Dark side). But this can be resolved easily enough if you can use Shut Someone Down with stats other than Cold, according to situation.
2. The limited success results (7-9) of Shutting Someone Down and Hold Steady don’t take into account the original move either – the person being seduced, attacked or Hexed will likely get a Conditions of some sort rather than Harm, or some required response (even if it’s Hold Steady’s default of Terrified). Granted, this is less of a problem than the first reservation, as Conditions can be tailored accordingly (and Terrified can pretty much work in any situation), and as the PCs are the ‘heroes’ I don’t feel that the NPCs should get to have their moves on the PCs be successful by default.
There are a few other instances where NPC might be required to use moves that wouldn’t be directly resisted by a PC. Most of these I’ll probably play by ear, as required by the story, but I figure that when I do need to refer to actual existing moves then powerful villains (such as an Infernal’s dark power) can automatically pick from the 10+ results, whereas less important support characters pick from the 7-9 range, being largely inferior to the PCs.
I’ve run several games with primary NPC antagonists and for the most part I let the PCs dictate the flow of actions. In the fights where it has been PC vs NPC, the NPCs took little to no action and The PCs only had harm inflicted upon them as result of a hard move after a failed roll or partially success lash out where they choose to allow the NPC the choice of inflicting harm on them (Or if the PCs ignored me clearly threatening them with physical violence (usually after someone threw and initial punch that automatically missed or when someone was walking towards them in a threatening manner))
For NPC Action I usually have modeled them after a bunch of the non-roll PC action of the particular skin I am drawing the monster concept from. The most recent game I introduced a move where a sexual snake-cult leader could gaze into the eyes of some who had been bitten by his snake-parasite and force the PC to choose one of the options from the partial success Turn on menu. The Person confronted him still managed to put him down for the count in their one on one confrontation without having to give away more than a single string because of the surprise nature of the blitz attack and some excellent rolls. On the same token some people in games eventually have the dice turn against them and have had to flee fights before they got their teeth kicked in
As for defending against NPC actions I fell back on “Run away” and “Hold Steady”.
The most recent action an NPC the players heavily assumed (and correctly assumed) was a witch was reaching across the lunch table to pluck a hair from the hair of one of the player’s heads. Two were present and I allowed each a single chance to respond to it.
The person whose hair it was tried avoid it so I declared it was “Run away”. She failed so the Witch got what she wanted. If she succeeded she would have duck and dodged and the Witch’s flimsy excuse would have been thwarted making her have to come up with some other gambit at another time. If it has been a partial success the Run away menu would have made an interesting amount of choices. Causing a big scene would certainly lead to the player’s embarassment (and possibly the witches) Running into something worse could have easily meant that her avoidance caused her a point of harm in some fashion (Bumping here head against the table too hard (Which probably would have drawn blood making the witch launch and immediate second polite and tidy gambit to collect that)) and giving a string on the scariest person there would mean that her avoidance would let the witch know she was REALLY scared of her.
Oh and don’t forget more active countermeasures exist also. Manipulate NPC when used in a proactive manner and successful it can stop any NPC action by convincing them to act in the way you want them to.. Shutting down NPCs or Punching them in the throat (Lash out physically) works well too. There the risk is still in the player’s hands to defend themselves.
And another thing to keep in mind is the Dice tell you the end outcome not how it is reached. Just because your PCs thwarted the NPC by calling them a mean name doesn’t mean they have to curl into a ball like a baby and cry. A failure could mean the NPC pauses and decided it would be best to strike later and/or in a different manner, or maybe it’s attracted the attention from it’s original target to them, or if they are already the target the enemy decides that the fate they were going to dish out isn’t severe enough. It’s all in how you couch the outcome that makes the difference
Yeah, we’ve discussed this above.
Largely, when the PC has plenty of time to react to an NPC move, the whole range of Moves make a degree of sense. Conversely, when a NPC move creeps up on a PC, the two Cold moves make most sense as Hold Steady is how a PC would attempt to understand an unknown threat, and Shut Someone Down is how a PC would attempt to shut it down as soon as they register it. Which would be easier for Cold characters, I suppose, as they likely don’t like letting their guard down, or losing control.
Sorry didn’t see, and As mentioned above I would add in the Volatile moves for instantaneous response to more physically based NPC moves/actions.
While that does favor characters strong in Volitile and Cold. In the narrative that just means that people who are better at fighting are better at defending themselves and people who have more control over their emotions have… more control over their emotions
Oh, absolutely, if you’ve got time to swing a fist or turn and run that’s an option. I guess I’m seeing the Lashing Out/Running Away as not quite instantaneous because, if someone gets the drop on you, you won’t automatically get the chance to deliver harm to them before they do to you, or escape. If that’s your next move, sure, go for it, but you’ll probably take a little damage first.
I think with the normal moves, regardless of whether a PC is making a move against an NPC or another PC, the results are essentially the same; the target doesn’t get a counter move. So, when a PC makes a move, it all boils down to a simple dice roll and the active PC’s stat.
However, if it’s an NPC making a ‘move’, the above assumptions I’ve made make it all reliant on the ‘resisting’ PC, who gains an advantage if they’re particularly Cold.
Maybe I’m just overthinking this all, and I should just assume story trumps mechanics and that the PC doesn’t get to resist. “Whenever people put themselves in harm’s way, make a hard move. Whenever it’s unclear what should happen next, make a hard move.” I guess I can just play it feral and have NPCs cause as much chaos as the story establishes. Then… “what do you do?”
This is a great thread!! Just posting to follow it! 🙂
It’s really weird for me to not be rolling powers against PCs. I come from a WoD background, and one of the things you do almost ALL THE TIME is throw the NPC’s super powers at the PCs.
This helps though!
It’s nice, as the MC, to keep your mind on the story and have the players deal with the more mechanical aspects. I know what you mean though, as I have a lot of love for traditional style RPGs, but there’s a lot to be said for a game that doesn’t require you to carry around heavy tomes around with you, that doesn’t require flicking through several hundred pages to find the right rule or background detail, that doesn’t require rolling a handful of dice into a small area of table space. :-)
Seriously. All of those things are so great.