Here’s a draft of a Monsterhearts skin I’ve begun working on, The Maenad. Thanks to Adam Goldberg and Dani L. for the input they’ve given already!
Comments and constructive criticism are welcome and encouraged 🙂
Here’s a draft of a Monsterhearts skin I’ve begun working on, The Maenad. Thanks to Adam Goldberg and Dani L.
Here’s a draft of a Monsterhearts skin I’ve begun working on, The Maenad. Thanks to Adam Goldberg and Dani L.
Plussed one for later when I can read this more closely. It looks good so far, though I would suggest some of the moves be rewritten for clarity. There also seems to be a lot of String swapping which, while fine, doesn’t strike me as being incredibly interesting.
Christopher Stone-Bush, I agree: string-for-string doesn’t float my boat either.
Bad Influence is interesting and sets the theme of the skin for someone who wants to just have fun and get others to make bad decisions. Since that is the feel I get from that move it is the one I am going to go with it for examining the rest of the skin. I am split on the bottom line of the move. I firmly falls into the “need to see in action for final decision” though I would be interested in hearing what lead you to make those specific decisions, though I do think it fits well with the rest of the mechanics.
Ecstasy should be renamed Tripping. Names are important and this one is all about altering your mind to escape your problem, which is tripping. Additionally this one is very oddly worded
When you drink alcohol or partake in a mood-altering substance with other people, roll with (dark or volatile). On a 10 up, Everyone involved chooses two. a 7-9, you choose (or each chooses) one and give someone (or everyone if each still chooses) in the scene a string on you.
– Carry one forward
– Erase one of your conditions
– Gain a string on someone involved (suggested by a playtester in their first look because they thought it would need more than just 2 options)
I suggested this be switched to Dark or Volatile because this isn’t about you being attractive. This is about altering the mind/body. Volatile is all about the physical nature and therefor could fit which Dark is about the mental and unnatural, and altering the mind is definitely not natural.
Raving is out of balance. It gives a plus 2 for a purely RP trigger that the PC is in full control of and provides no mechanical disadvantage to the PC for using it.
Most other moves that provide a +2 bonus require some sort of mechanical penalty, which most commonly is ‘Give a string away to (specified someone)’
Making this a +1 bonus and also taking away the problematically worded ‘Publicly’ so that when then maenad beings up their exploits they gain the bonus (Which would make more sense narratively as well, as a completely private and personal conversation about that awesome time you had at a wild party should hold just as much sway in impressing that individual)
Tear you to pieces seems out of place in a skin about being a consummate party-girl/boy who influences others to bad behavior. I’m assuming this comes from the Bacchae tale where a king is lured away and literally torn to pieces by maenads for banning the worship of Dionysys. If this is the influence then I think you may have missed the mark taking it in the direction you have. As written the skin move says “This person is really good at verbally demolishing people for any reason possible” which does not fit in with the true feel of the tale which was all about punishing someone who killed the joy. Therefor I feel like the move would fit better if instead it triggered to Killjoy specifically (and likely in a broader context to include at least lash out physically but also possibly turn on, manipulate, and run away) because then it would be about that person gaining even greater advantage over people who don’t want to party or want to stop others from partying, which fits better in the theme of the skin and the story I feel you are drawing this from.
Crazy Like a Fox seems more akin to bad sitcom writing than interesting development in a story, particularly with the stipulation that you must “decide aloud” (which ironically seems to not require you to ACTUALLY go through with with the action). Perhaps something more akin to “Whenever you go overboard with advice or direction someone has given you, carry one forward on the roll” This wording encourages players to do everything to the fullest and most extreme that they can which is very inline with the theme you seem to be going for and gives them the advantage for doing so.
Frenzy seems really complicated in it’s wording. I would have to see how this plays out but my instincts lean towards this needs drastic simplification.
If I had to take a stab at something:
When you attempt to rile others, Give everyone present a condition representing a specific powerful emotion (horny, euphoric, agitated), then roll with Hot. On a 10+ everyone carries one forward on all rolls this scene to embody or fulfill that emotion or need. On a 7-9, Everyone present takes a string on you.
Magnetic seems out of place in this skin (and possibly Monsterhearts as a whole) and more at home in a Muse skin than this one. While the classical image of the Maenad and the Muse were very close, they have since drifted very drastically apart in public perception. Additionally this is a move about spectacular talent that draws people in which doesn’t fit with a party-girl/boy theme or have any real negative impact on the story, which is something all moves are supposed to have.
Oddly enough though taking it from the opposite direction I do not think I would be as bothered by a Muse having the party elements as Muses are influences to people and many artists tend to drown themselves in drugs or alcohol. Over all I say this Move should be massively reworked or dropped completely. It needs to have more teeth than it does if it’s going to fit in with Monsterhearts and it doesn’t fit with the current theme of the skin at all.
Sex move is mixed which makes is not really fit with the concept of a sex move. Sex moves are insanely positive to their skin (Including the Mortal which puts them in harms way to more easily trigger other moves and play into their “X In distress” concept, and the Vampire is a tease who gains his power over other by working people up and denying them. Additionally they are one of the 2 skins whose good benefit triggers without triggering the other player benefit which would subject themselves to the other person’t move which is insanely positive)
To address this issue, I would suggest
When you have sex, everyone involved loses a string on you. You may distribute any number of remaining strings held on you among the other participants.
These are my initial thoughts before I headed out.
Hmmm, I like this Skin overall, but a Maenad is meant to feel a bit more crazy; perhaps there should be some disastrous twist to balance it. For example:
Cluster-Fuck
Whenever gaining a String means you hold more than 5 Strings total, roll against Dark:
10+, gain the condition “Horny as Hell” and choose 1 from the list below
7-9, choose 2: Immediately trigger your Sex Move; Lash Out; an NPC gains a String on you.
6-, gain the Conditions “Filthy” and “Slut”, surrender 3 Strings to another character present.
This Skin should trail emotional devastation wherever it goes.
Branden Leavens Apologies for the instances of odd wording here; this draft is pretty much at the getting-ideas-on-paper stage. Since it’s likely that the mechanics of each move would get changed anyway (or that certain moves might be scrapped completely), I didn’t spend a lot of time hammering out the phrasing.
I feel the same as you do about the last line of Bad Influence. I’m not sure how it will play out in game, but I want to test it out. The idea behind it was that the Maenad walks a fine line between ‘Haha, you’re crazy! LOL’ and “Whoa. You’re crazy.” Those who know the Maenad best or who have social leverage on them would be more likely to see to the core of their ‘crazy’ behavior: a reckless desperation to be cool.
The name “Ecstasy” was meant to evoke the rapture of a mind-altered state as well as tie the move back to the mythology of maenads and alcohol-tinged ecstatic frenzies. Evidently, this may not come across. I’m not sure “Tripping” really works for me for the move either, though. I’ll give this some thought. You’re definitely right though, about the stat; dark works better. Thanks for the suggestions regarding the mechanics!
The version of Tear You To Pieces that was in the original draft did trigger only when killjoy was tagged. I don’t remember why I changed it… which is probably a bad sign. I think it’s a great idea to allow the bonus to be added in a broader range of contexts. Thanks.
As for Crazy Like a Fox, I can imagine the type of sitcom scene you’re picturing, and I assure you that was not my intention! (I’m rather amused by the mental image, however.) I phrased it as “decide aloud” because I didn’t want to afford the Maenad the luxury of being subtle about their poorly-reasoned intentions, but I do see the problem there now that you’ve articulated it. (I also intended that the Maenad would have to actually go through with their plan–or try to. I phrased it poorly.) As an amendment, maybe something like “Whenever you go overboard with advice or direction someone has given you and it ends badly, mark experience.” Hmm.
I absolutely agree that Frenzy is wordy and a bit overcomplicated. I’ve been considering how to simplify it. I’ll be thinking about this one.
Magnetic isn’t really about being talented, it’s about being passionate and inciting reaction. The point isn’t that you’re necessarily good at dancing (or singing or fighting) in terms of skill, just that there’s something about the way you throw yourself into it that can’t be ignored. The Maenad doesn’t necessarily have to be a traditional party girl/boy, as long as they’re someone who is self-indulgent, pleasure-seeking, and excessive in their behavior. I guess this move is trying to express that being “too much” can also be quite charismatic (and also trying to prevent the Maenad from just being a drunken lunatic that no one wants to be around, when part of the archetype is that their frenzy is contagious). I tried to leave room in the moves (and origins) for a few different types: I can see someone who consciously, maliciously leads people to ruin for their own pleasure; someone who naively pursues instant gratification to their detriment and the detriment of those around them; someone who is totally mundane; someone who is literally, like for-real-for-real a cultist of Dionysus. In my mind, Magnetic fits–just maybe better for some of those types than others.
That’s a much better wording of the Sex Move, thank you. This is my first stab at a skin, so I’m kind of like ‘wat do’ in terms of writing moves with succinct and clear instructions. I will likely deviate mechanically from your suggestion (and from what is currently written in the skin), but I will take this sentence structure on board.
Thanks for your thoughtful analysis! Lots to think about.
Michael Barry The concern I see with a move like that is: why would someone ever take it? And it seems a bit redundant with the Darkest Self, which as written now, is basically to say ‘screw it’ and give up any semblance of impulse control.
I’d like to parse some of the things you have said because I glossed over Magnetic and you have brought up some good points there (other places too but I have most to say on this right now)
Magnetic isn’t really about being talented, it’s about being passionate and inciting reaction. The point isn’t that you’re necessarily good at dancing (or singing or fighting) in terms of skill, just that there’s something about the way you throw yourself into it that can’t be ignored.
Fair enough, I would suggest then that you expand it because it comes off less about passion and more about specific talent. Perhaps making the trigger for the move “Whenever you heedlessly pursue a goal or pursuit..” or “When you preform while locked in the thralls of passion” so that it is more clear the trigger is your passion on any specific thing you do and not your unnatural talent for the thing.
The Maenad doesn’t necessarily have to be a traditional party girl/boy, as long as they’re someone who is self-indulgent, pleasure-seeking, and excessive in their behavior[…]I tried to leave room in the moves (and origins) for a few different types: I can see someone who consciously, maliciously leads people to ruin for their own pleasure; someone who naively pursues instant gratification to their detriment and the detriment of those around them; someone who is totally mundane; someone who is literally, like for-real-for-real a cultist of Dionysus.
Personally I would say that all those examples still pretty aptly describe the various types of Party-people, but I get your point; there can be deviations from the theme because people can think and feel different ways about their actions and have vastly different reasoning which is why no two characters are actually alike, which I agree with and applaud.
“I guess this move is trying to express that being “too much” can also be quite charismatic.”
Which I wholeheartedly agree with. The issue I have is that the mechanics there are clunky for that and it did not really fulfill the MH Ethic that “Happiness comes at others expense” enough. Primarily, it’s a move with a roll in a skin with two other moves that are rolls. Most skins have one, possibly two moves that will rely on a roll. While others may modify other rolls you make (Like switching stats for one of the 7 basic moves) new rolls are prety sparse. I would also say that what you are going for does not need a roll at all.
“When someone watches you perform while locked in the thralls of passion in a private or personal moment, they choose: gain the condition “enticed” (or “Enthralled” your choice on the wording) or give you a string on them”.
I can see many instances where this could happen. Singing in the shower, practicing alone in an empty dance hall, when you have sex with someone, I could even see justification for this happening in the middle of a rave surrounded by other people so long as your character isn’t the center of attention but just another face in the crowd as such dancing is usually “private and personal”. Of course this move likely will make you a center of attention after with plenty of ‘enticed/enthralled/whatever you come up with’ people coming up to you and giving you that attention.
This wording makes partying and being passionate an actual benefit, which will encourage the player to actually be passionate and do party things. It fully fits in with their passion being infectious/contagious and will give them power over other people. That power comes at a cost as private moments are going to be routinely ruined by attention from others that they did not want (which is a problem with this lifestyle that has yet to be addressed here).
“(and also trying to prevent the Maenad from just being a drunken lunatic that no one wants to be around, when part of the archetype is that their frenzy is contagious) In my mind, Magnetic fits–just maybe better for some of those types than others.”
Your right being Magnetic does fit as a concept the mechanic describe which is entirely a problem with how it was laid out mechanically.
Additionally I would advise you not shy away from the concept of “Crazy drunken lunatic no one wants to be around” When the other skins are “Zealous murderous killer no one wants to be around” “Vengeful pedantic sex-freak no one wants to be around” “Creepy unseen stalker no one wants to be around” “Hedonistic morbid psycho no one wants to be around” “Pushy disturbing addict no one wants to be around” “Obsessive co-dependent perpetual-victim no one wants to be around” “Bossy controlling bitch no one wants to be around” “Predatory manipulative dick-bag no one wants to be around” and “Unstable possessive lunatic no one wants to be around”, mostly because the only word in that statement that isn’t reflected in the other descriptions anywhere is “Drunken” which means it both fits and is definitely a new niche.
All in all I think that the skin shows great promise and potential and I do think it is in good hands with you, though I would like to give a version of this to my players today to get more feedback and see if they are interested in giving it a spin.
A couple of rewording suggestions:
Bad Influence
When you convince someone to act against their best interests or stated desires in the name of having fun, they gain a String on you and lose the Condition killjoy if they have it. If they turn you down instead, you gain a String on them or they gain the Condition killjoy, their choice.
The second part of the move feels like it is doing something else. I think it needs to become its own move, or dropped entirely.
Ecstasy
When you drink alcohol or partake in a mood-altering substance with other people, roll with hot. On a 10 up, carry 1 forward and erase one of your Conditions. On a 7-9, choose one or the other, and give someone in the scene a string on you.
I agree with Branden Leavens that this move she be renamed to Tripping since it is about altering your mood. I disagree that it needs to use a different stat though. Using Hot here could represent how persuasive the Maenad is in getting people to join them. You could reword the move’s trigger to reflect that. Something like:
“When you convince someone to partake in a mood altering substance with you…”
Raving
This move works as is, but just feels a bit… flat. There doesn’t seem to be much of a downside here (which not every move needs, mind). You could model it after the Ghoul’s move a bit more though. Something like:
“When you brag about your decadent or degenerate exploits to someone, give them the Condition thrill-seeker and roll to turn them on.”
Magnetic
I’m not sure which part of the 7-9 result allows the Maenad to carry one forward. Is it the Condition clearing or the String taking? That needs to be clearer. I also feel you don’t need to box the Maenad into one kind of activity to trigger this move. What about:
“When you lose yourself in a public performance, such as dance, song, or violence, your passion is entrancing. Name someone in eyesight or earshot and roll with dark. On a 10 up, that person just has to come talk to you, and you carry 1 forward toward dealing with them. On a 7-9, someone you’d rather not see shows up first.”
Tear You To Pieces
The move works fine and is worded fine, but it’s a bit boring. I also don’t see how it fits into the Maenad’s theme of people joining you in wild abandon.
Crazy Like a Fox
When someone offers you sound advice and you decide aloud on a more extreme version of their suggestion, they gain a String on you and you mark experience.
Christopher Stone-Bush Your Bad Influence is better wording but I think it should go a step further and make the trigger not on you having to convince others but simply the act of partying or not, which actually fits the theme better
When someone tries to stop your party, or refuses to join in the fun when you pressure them to let loose, they choose: give you a String on them or gain the condition Killjoy. When someone joins in on your party, they gain a String on you and lose the Killjoy condition if they have it.
When you have fewer Strings on someone than they have on you, they may add 1 to rolls against you as though you have the condition Reckless.
While I agree that the second part of the move feels off, it also provides a hindrance for the character to work around based on giving out too many strings, which could tie into the desire to be detached and free and not tied down or involved, which actually does fit mechanically with the theme of the skin. I’m not 100% sold on it or it’s wording but I think it passes the muster to be played with and won’t break the game.
Thanks for the vote of confidence on the name change, but I will point out that your reason for keeping it a hot roll actually doesn’t make sense with the trigger of already “Partaking in a mood-altering substance” or even having convinced someone already because then convincing that hot implies has already taken place before the roll (likely through manipulate NPC or RP or spending a string and offering a point of Xp). Currently this move thematically represents the self medication effect of doing drugs, which fits more with Dark.
The Hot move you suggest would more likely be:
Pusher
When you try to convince someone to partake in mood altering substances roll with hot. On a 10+ you each lose a condition and carry one forward. On a 7-9 they choose to accept or refuse, if they accept trigger the 10+ if they refuse give them the condition Killjoy
I’m guessing you are referring to ‘Ending’ with Raving’s comment. It’s possible though I think a better inspiration is “Wild Hunt” form the Fae. This suggestion isn’t bad or good just a different way of doing things which is fine. I would suggest the condition “enticed” fits better in narrative and more line with “morbid” from Ending.
I would say that some of the things suggested like the rewording of crazy like a fox don’t address the fact that the Maenad only has to say it and not actually do it. I know that wasn’t the authors intention but it is what the move as written and your current reworking suggests. Also what is “sound advice”? is “you should fight him after school” sound advice? or is “you should eat all you vegetables” sound advice? is “you should go to school wearing your bikini” sound advice? I ask this because all these bring up a lot of gray space in the move’s trigger as suggested. I don’t think getting into a fight after school personally is sound advice but others might disagree. Eating all your vegetables is definitely sound advice but how does going overboard become interesting to game?
I think this skin would be really really fun. No suggestions except some rewording related to the wording of who chooses, and how many, to make it more clear. But other than that I consider this to be a skin with a nice diverse playstyle that seems fun. I’d personally go the manic pixie dreamperson with Magnetic and either Frenzy or Crazy like a Fox. Awesome.
I like it a lot but I’d wish there was a move that let you tear people limb from limb, maybe rolling plus hot to lash out physically, perhaps only on those with the killjoy condition.
Thanks, Ben! I actually have a second draft of the skin now that I haven’t posted here yet, but there is such a move now. “While you are your Darkest Self, add 2 to rolls to lash out physically. Add 1 extra harm if you are using your bare hands.”