I have a couple of doubts about Cash in a Debt.
With a PCs:
1- I’m asking for a favor; when exactly I cash in the debt? Let’s say I’m asking Ely, the Vamp (a PC) to steal a magical ring and give it to me. I’d say that I’m cashing in the debt when Ely gives me the ring, not when she says “Ok, I’ll get it to you. Promised.”
2- I’m having problems with Lending a Hand or Getting in the Way as a consequence of Cash in a Debt. I generally find that both Lending a Hand and Getting in the Way happen all of a sudden, because they’re reactions to someone else’s actions. So there is virtually no time for the PC to ask another character for help, or especially to get in the way of someone who’s acting right there. I’d say that you can choose those options only if you have enough time to negotiate the terms (explaining why the debt matters, bargaining, trying to refuse to honor the debt, etc…), but I’m not sure.
With NPCs:
3- When a PC is cashing in a debt with an NPC, can the MC say that you’re asking for too much?
E.g. Ely, the Vamp (a PC) cashes in a debt with Zack. Zack is plain human, but he’s part of the Wild Faction because he’s one of the minions of Abaddon, the demon. Ely asks Zack to introduce her to Abaddon. What Ely doesn’t know is that Abaddon told its minions that if anyone had spoken about Abaddon itself, they’d have been killed. So it seems logical that Zack would just say “I’m sorry Ely. You’re asking for too much here.”
Is it legit?
.
As for 1, I’m pretty sure you cash in the debt and they optionally try to avoid it at the time you ask for the favor. But if they never do the thing then you may get the debt back.
To put it in familiar human terms:
I helped Frank move into his new apartment last year. (debt gained)
Now I need some help
“Hey Frank, I need some help. I need someone to drive me to the airport at 4am next week so I can catch an early flight. I know it’s an hour roundtrip out of your way, but can you give me a lift? We’ll be even for helping move you into your new place last year.” (cash in debt)
At this point the debt is committed. Even though the help needed is a week in the future, I can’t cash in that debt again in the middle to get Frank to agree to take care of my cats while I’m gone.
Case 1) A couple of days before the trip to the airport, Frank gets in a bad car accident and his car is totaled. He no longer he is no longer capable of fulfilling the debt. He calls me up and tells me about it. If he really CAN do it, it’s just more annoying, then he’s trying to weasel out of his debt and must roll, but if he really has no way of doing it, then it seems like I get the debt back.
Case 2) He shows up at 4am on the appropriate day. We get in Frank’s car and start driving to the airport. A massive pileup on the way ruins traffic for miles. We are running late and are going to miss my flight. I call the airline and end up rescheduling, so we turn around and head home and I’ll have to go back to the airport tomorrow. Technically Frank did not complete everything about the debt (we didn’t make it to the airport), but he fulfilled the spirit of the debt (he showed up at my house at 4am like I asked to drive him someplace. It’s not his fault that we failed to get to the airport in time). The debt is gone.
In your ring example above:
You spend the debt when you ask Ely to get the ring.
1) If she later decides she doesn’t want to, then she’s rolling to shirk the debt with all of the corresponding risks.
2) If she loses the opportunity to steal the ring before she gets started (let’s say her plan is to sneak into the owner’s house tomorrow to steal it, but today you watch the owner throw it into the fires of Mount Doom), then you get the debt back because it is no longer possible to even try, but Ely didn’t refuse the debt.
3) If she goes and steals the wrong ring because you gave her bad intel on how to identify a magic ring versus a perfectly normal ring. Tough luck. She risked herself an spent effort in good faith, the debt is paid.
I think
1) the debt is “spent” when you obtain what you wanted. If a PC “tries”, but fails, the debt still stands. At least, the debtor may negotiate, if he feels the payment is too high.
Ask the MC: is it possibile to obtain X to honor the debt?
2) The move say you can, but the fiction must come first. If you can’t communicate with your debtor, you may not ask.
3) in your example, the MC cannot “refuse to honor”, but can state that the favor outmatches the debt; AND, for the sake of honesy, he should explain the situation. The PC doesn’t have to know, the player does.
The more I watch it, the more it appears even murkier to me.
Probably because refusing to honor a debt can be a very subjective matter.
For example, the three options you (Charlie Collins) gave on this issue can be very subjective. For instance, about the 2nd case I could say that, since Ely is reporting the fact that the ring has been destroyed, which can be an useful piece of data, the debt is honored; about the 3rd case I could also say that since the condition for honoring the debt was to bring that ring to me, period, the fact that you had bad intel or you were unskilled for the task is irrelevant and you still owe me the debt. My interpretations of the facts and yours could be both legit.
While I was thinking about debts, I’ve also found that a debt is valid only if the creditor has some sort of leverage on the debtor. I’m a loan shark. I lend you money. You cannot pay me back? I send my enforcers to break your legs.
I’m your friend, and I ask you a very big favor, because you owe me one. If you don’t do it, you fear that our relationship may get cracked.
You come from a honorable family. You owe someone a debt. You know that if you don’t respect it, your entire family would be dishonored.
If i got it right, in Urban Shadows you always have leverage in the form of gossip. “If you don’t honor my debt, people will know, and the debts you’re saving will be worth nothing”. What if I’m a pariah, or I’m renowned to be a big lier or people don’t trust me by default. I can still use that leverage to convince you to honor my debt?
Yeah, in US we are not so much friends as allies. The society of Supernatural is very closed and monitored (by its members). credibility is all, like in the financial world. If you are a fake (un cazzaro), everybody will know, and you’re done.
There was a very good explanation of this in a Vampire supplement (don’t remember which). Must be one of the latter editions, base rules or players guide.
Some quick answers here:
1) You cash in the Debt when you ask for the ring. If later it turns out that the task is impossible or they didn’t do it, then you may be able to get the Debt back. If you disagree about whether the Debt was returned, then the Debt isn’t returned; remember that Debts have to be agreed upon by both parties. However, if someone says “I tried to do the thing and I couldn’t so I fulfilled my Debt” and you disagree… think twice before helping that person in the future.
2) Make time for people to cash in Debts to get others to lend a hand or get in the way. Usually it goes like this for me:
MC: What do you do?
Lucia’s Player: I unleash on the vampire! Drat. I only got a 9.
MC: Karl is here, maybe he could help you.
Karl’s player: Fuck that. I’m not helping her.
Lucia’s player: I’ll cash in a Debt to make him help me. [Karl shrugs. He’s cool with that.]
MC: Awesome. What does that look like?
Lucia’s player: While I’m wrestling with the vampire, I say “Dammit, Karl. I wouldn’t have saved you from that warlock if I had known you were just going to stand there…”
As Diego notes, you have to be able to communicate to cash in, so if someone is tied up and gagged, they may not be able to cash in the debt!
3) Debts only get you moderate favors. The MC can always declare that you’re asking for something too big or that you don’t have sufficient leverage.