Here’s a question; do you ever roll (or have players roll) for accidental moves? Or do you only break out the dice when the character has a specific goal in mind.
For example, if your character says something innocently or even to try and make someone feel better, but you the player happen to know this will probably make the other character feel worse. Do you roll to Shut them Down, or just say what you’re going to say and let them react however they want?
I get the sense that moves are only ever intentionally triggered. Otherwise, characters just react however their players feel is appropriate.
Using your example, if a PC says something that unintentionally makes an NPC feel worse, I, as MC, would simply narrate how the NPC reacts.
Haven’t read MH book in a while, but in DW it explicitly says that the moves activate any time the conditions of the moves are fulfilled, and that all the table should pay attention to triggers.
I think that’s the case with most PbtA games; moves are triggered whenever their conditions are met. However I read intent as part of the trigger for the Basic Moves in Monsterhearts.
Chris Stone-Bush I stand corrected. 🙂
Anyway, this can be abused.
I could be wrong here Paride Papadia. The trigger for the moves are written on the player handouts simply as “when you turn someone on…”, ” when you shut someone down…” etc. So they could be triggered by accident with that wording. But reading what the moves are intended to do (in the book) is what makes me think that intent is part of their triggers.
No, I’m pretty sure the moves are triggered by the fitting actions just as in other PbtA games. On page 18 it says: “When you narrate your character doing something described by one of the moves, you follow the rules.”
And in the example below: “If Vanessa’s player wanted to, she could change her narration to avoid triggering that move.”
But your example about accidentally hurting someone while trying to be nice – no, I wouldn’t say it triggers “Shut Someone Down”. Shutting someone down always means you want the other party to shut the fuck up, and while there might be circumstances where it’s not intentional, consoling someone to make them feel better is not “Shut Someone Up” (it could be one of the Grown Up moves). Even if it doesn’t work.
I can’t think of many examples where a character unintentional “Shuts Someone Down”, but it works all the time for “Turn Someone On”. Maybe the character doesn’t know how hot they are while wiping the blood from their mouth, but man, the narration and the other characters know.
When i play i ask to the player if he wants to shut or not but i’ve seen some MC that activate the moves every time seems to be appropriate.
I mean both shut and turn. If my character wear a sexy tshirt i(player) can turn but my character is not doing it on purpose.
Turn someone on is one of the few (the only?) move where you, the player, don’t have to narrate you character intentionally trying to do something. But because shut someone down is about reducing someone’s social standing and power, I would say that could almost never be triggered by accident.
that which is a shut for a person not is for another. I think that tge best way is the group agreement. Important thing is fair play and good story .
Chris Stone-Bush
Yeah, there aren’t many examples, but I’m not sure it could never come up. Something like “I walk down the corridor with this aura of ‘nobody even think of talking to me or I’ll tear you to pieces'”, then I’d say, sure, the character can “Shut Someone Down” without even noticing they approached them from behind.
I agree that group consent is the most important, but I also think it’s important that moves are triggered by the narration, not only by player intent. But then, you should want to roll the dice and make moves in Monsterhearts, playing it safe and avoiding triggering moves is not really what the game is about.
I too am not sure it could never come up, but I would not have the player roll to shut someone down in your example Anne W .
If a player says “I walk down the corridor with this aura of ‘nobody even think of talking to me or I’ll tear you to pieces'”, I would have NPCs react appropriately. Most of them probably would not approach the PC, but if an NPC was brave enough to do so, I’d ask the player what they do. If the player choses to agressively ignore the NPC or makes some cutting remark, then they’ve triggered shut someone down.
At my table, I deliberately and explicitly establish a social expectation of “I don’t care what your intent was, so don’t bother arguing it with me.”
Once that is established, people learn to be cautious about (for instance) staring into blood-soaked mirrors while wondering “What should I do to get back at Connie?” If they don’t want to trigger visions with Gaze Into The Abyss then that’s not the narration they want, not at my table.
If you want to establish that intent does matter, establish that expectation. People can (and do) play fine either way, in my experience.
For me, I separate player intent with character intent. The character can be quite oblivious to the effect they are having on others, but if the player intends to trigger the move then – assuming the narrative is suitable – then the character triggers the move.
This makes me wonder about how other people deal with refusing to allow players to make a move that they are wanting to make?
Richard: Are we talking about a move they narrated?
Yes. I’ve seen a couple of ways this has happened: ‘You encounter the horrible monster,’ ‘I reach out to stroke its tentacles to turn it on’
&
‘I reach out to stroke Harvey (a PC)’s cheek to turn him on.’
MC ‘Wait, what does he do as you do that?’
Harvey ‘I push the hand away.’
‘Right, roll Shut Down.’
So the first one is narrated (and therefore rolled) and the second one the narration doesn’t actually happen, right?
I mean, if she follows up with “when he knocks my hand away I look up with pouty, hurt eyes, leaning forward to tighten my sweater” then that’s a clear narration and she rolls … yeah?
As for the tentacle monster … best case scenario is they get a string on a tentacle monster. Worst case is you get a hard move that I can think of about six ways (off the top of my head) to make absolutely awesome. If they want to take that gamble, why stop them?
For the first example, does the narrative sit right though? Should a PC be able to turn on absolutely anything with a pulse? If not, do you end up in discussions about why the PC’s narration wasn’t sufficient to trigger the move (like, for instance, if a PC demands to take on a tank by punching it with a bare hand and then wants to roll Lash Out)?
In the second example, the second PC essentially blocks the first PC from their move. They get their shut down, but the first PC doesn’t get their turn on (or could the first PC say they prevent the hand being knocked away in some manner). I’ve seen this happen in a game and wondered how folk dealt with it.
For the first example, I’d say: whatever makes sense in the narrative. Cosmic Eldritch Horror, that doesn’t even register your existence? Or some mindless creature? No matter if as MC or another player, seducing that thing would make no sense to me. No matter how you narrate it, you won’t be able to “Turn On” a door or a city – or an unfeeling tentacle creature.
If it’s Tentacoo, devourer of virgins, then okay, Turn it On (even though I’d probably veto that, because sex or not, I don’t really want to play an eroge at the table).
Lashing Out is normally rolled against another character, I’m not sure it would make sense rules-wise to roll against a tank/wall in general. But say it does, again: Has it been established that the Werewolf can punch through walls? Sure, roll, but keep it in mind the next time you go into your Darkest Self.
If not, well, then probably not. I’d see how the table reacts, though I’d normally say that punching down tanks isn’t super in tone for a Monsterhearts game.
In the second example, I’d definitely say it’s okay to roll Turn Harvey On. He can still push the hand away, because even on a successful Turn On, his player is allowed to describe how Harvey reacts.
If Harvey’s player doesn’t want Harvey to be turned on… well, that’s a bigger problem. Turn Someone On includes being turned on by stuff you never would admit to find sexy – confusing sexuality is a part of Monsterhearts. If Harvey’s player really feels uncomfortable, I’d allow him to block the move, but I’d also ask him if he wants to keep playing – because something like that is probably going to happen again.
I suppose you could say in the first case “That’s not a someone, it’s a something … you can try to turn it on, but there’s no roll to be had. You can’t have a string on it any more than you can on a door.”
Honestly, I’d do it differently, but I don’t think there’s any question how to have the discussion if that’s your take.
On Harvey: It is literally impossible for someone to “prevent” another player from narrating turning them on. They can run away, avert their eyes, stick their fingers in their ears, and if I wanted the narration I would just ask “And what are you doing about your imagination, given what great lengths you’re going to to provoke it? I am sexy in your mind, and I’m picking up dice.”
And frankly, I think that’s how it should be. Who wants to have these arguments, anyway? People who do not really want to be playing the game, they want to be playing some game where they get to avoid being vulnerable to high school. Let ’em go play something else.