Hello Urban Shadows Community,
it was only until recently that I have stumbled across Urban Shadows. It’s quite unique and I am looking forward to GMing it for my group (, although I would wish that ALL the Archetypes would already be available ^^). To my surprise a quick search on the internet did not reveal any active forums or subforums dedicated to Urban Shadows.
That’s why I’ve come here to ask my questions regarding Debt in the game and the associated mechanics.
My group and I enjoy all kind of games, but we mainly play good old Vampire: the Masquerade. We like us some intrigue, conspiracies and backstabbing. Debts are often used as currency between vampires, so I looked at the Debt Moves from Urban Shadows and thought “That’s really nice, my players will like that”.
But after thinking it through, I came across some issues, mainly that my players are sneaky bastards and highly intelligent. Promises are not given lightly and not honoring a debt can leave you without friends quickly, no question. But through lies, deception and smart choices, debts can sometimes be turned around and the original purpose of a debt or promise can be twisted.
And that leads me to the (in my opinion) big difference between Debts in Vampire: the Masquearde compared to Urban Shadows. In Vampire: the Masquerade (and many other games) debts only exist ingame. Honoring or not honoring a debt has ingame consequences on the storytelling level. If someone asks me to do something in order to repay my debt, I can accept the task, but then weasel my way out or at least try.
For example, I am ordered to assassinate someone. I am a professional hitman, so asking me to kill someone is a reasonable job. But for some reason I don’t want to kill the target. So I have a plethora of options. I could kill my client in a sneaky way, so nobody knows that I am an asshole, who does not honor debts. I could warn the target and then tell my client “Sorry bro, but he obviously has very high security measurements”. I could fake the assassination and help the target escape (or plot revenge). I could set one of my own schemes in motion to distract everyone from killing each other.
So there are a lot of options to avoid honoring my debt. And in some cases those might not lead to any negative consequences for me. But Debts in Urban Shadows are more than ingame obligations. In Urban Shadows (compared to e.g. V:tM) they have mechanical consequences and are defined in game terms. So someone has to decide in an impartial and objective way when a Debt is created, when it is paid, when it is honored and when not. But this may not be obvious for the PCs and NPCs ingame.
If someone thinks I owe him/her a Debt, is this already a legitimate Debt? If I let someone think I owe him/her a Debt is THAT a legitimate Debt? Can it be a Debt if I already know that I will not do anything for the other person (, because for example I plan to betray them very soon)?
Because it depends on whether there is a Debt or not if I actually have to refuse to honor the Debt. And if the other person THINKS I will honor the Debt, but in secret I know that I will not, do I use the “Refuse to Honor a Debt” Move? Because the consequences of not honoring a Debt may make no sense under some circumstances. Owing even more Debts may make no sense, depending on the original Debts. Losing face with their faction can be avoided if I obfuscate my dishonor. And if I already know that I will not honor any ANY Debts to this person, I should mark corruption instantly, not when I tell them that I will not do whatever they want. And losing all my Debts from everyone could be circumvented by finishing off the snitch.
I know that some of these scenarios seem constructed. But my players love to play smart and always try to find a way out. Sometimes there is one, sometimes not. But when they find a way to cheat the system, the would feel betrayed when I tell them that they cannot escape a Debt. And escaping from ones Debts should be a bold move, that should be considered carefully and can lead to a lot of troubles, especially in a society in which Debts are super important. So trying to cheat everyone is stupid.
I have no idea if I can accurately convey my thoughts. English is not my mother tongue, so I may sound super confused ^^.
I find the Debt mechanic fascinating, but I cannot wrap my head around it completely. Maybe someone can shed some light on this topic for me. Thanks.
Consider that there is an existing and thriving political ecosystem, and stepping outside of it will mark you as an untrustworthy outsider who “doesn’t understand how things are done here.”
That’s usually how I interpret the fiction and the mechanics of Debts and favors. And how I test what is appropriate or not.
Many questions here:
If someone thinks a debt is owed, is that a Debt?
No. Either you start with a Debt or an in character action creates the Debt through a Move.
If you let someone think they have a debt, is that a Debt?
No. See above.
Can I trick someone into thinking I’ve not refused to honor a Debt?
No. If you warn your target off instead of killing him all the other vampires are gonna know you’re a shit hit man who can’t be relied on even if nobody can prove you did it.
Jason Corley “or an in character action creates the Debt through a Move.”
Yes and no. End of Session is a Move, so you’re right there, but no, if someone thinks a Debt is owed, it is owed.
(pg.78) “If someone did you a favor at a cost, tell the group; you owe them a Debt. If you did someone a favor without redress, tell the group; they owe you a Debt.”
That’s quite specifically a Move activated through doing someone a favor at a cost, yes.
Thanks for your awesome answers. I think I get the gist of it. I usually only play roleplaying games where the rule mechanisms only affect things ingame. That’s why at first I couldn’t quite understand how some of the rules in Urban Fantasy make sense. Why my character cannot avoid Something Bad, even if it should be possible. The answer seems to be, that the rules do not affect the game directly, but the Metagame. And when it is a certain fact on the meta level that Somehting Bad happens, then Somehting Bad will happen in one way or another, no matter what characters do ingame.
This is quite interesting, but I am not sure if my group and I would enjoy such game. So yeah, all the reasons why not honoring debts will always be bad (–> because of the society and its rules) are nice, but ultimately the reason is: because the rules of the game say so.
Knowing that, it should be easy (or easier) to pick one of the options that actually makes sense OR create a situation (–> GM and player together), in which the chosen option makes sense.
But my players like to cheat the system. And with “system” I don’t mean the Rules of the game, but the ingame system, the political machinery that works in the city. I will definitely be GMing this in the future, but as I said, I am not sure if all of my players will like that their flawless plan is not flawless, just because the Rules demand it. My players love to be placed in tough situations and accept the logic consequences of their actions, but sometimes they also like to make an awesome plan and execute it with perfection.
You absolutely can cheat the social system and flaunt your Debts in Urban Shadows. It just is going to make things really hard for you.
Here’s a situation from one of my recent games where someone agreed to deliver a bomb to someone’s enemy, but disarmed it along the trip:
Creditor: You promised to deliver the package
PC: And I did!
Creditor: You want to act like you’re in third grade, fine. I’ll just let everyone know what your word is worth.
PC: but….but I didn’t give you my word
Creditor: I’ll be sure to mention that.