+1 forward or advantage?
What’s the mechanical / numerical comparison between taking +1 forward versus taking an advantage die (adding a third die to roll and keeping the best two) forward? Is one more generous than the other? Or more punishing, when used as a penalty?
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I can’t find it now, but somebody did an exhaustive analysis.
They concluded that for the range possible for PbtA stats, the difference is marginal.
http://anydice.com/program/3a41
There’s deeper math, but rule of thumb is that advantage is about +2
What about other, non-mathematical thoughts, too?
Craig Hatler – How would you construct that to test +1 forward?
From anydice (http://anydice.com/program/b22a): basically advantage is always better than a +1 forward, except that a +1 forward makes some results possible that wouldn’t be otherwise (e.g. a 12+ when your base stat is -1).
Just from eyeballing it a +2 forward is roughly comparable to advantage – same average result, but its maximum and minimum is broader.
anydice.com – AnyDice
Robert Bohl sorry, I was getting there–had to try and figure out the syntax.
Try this one, I think it should give you both side by side: anydice.com – AnyDice
In terms of feel at the table, Advantage creates a feeling of becoming more reliable – you’re more able to bring your A game.
+1 Forward gives a feeling of getting access to new advantages that make you more potent that you would be otherwise. At least in my opinion.
So it looks like +1 forward makes a more-normal distribution, and centers on the middle of the spread, where advantage makes a distribution skewed to higher results, with an off-center middle. And, like James Iles says, doesn’t allow you a 13+ option.
So really it’s sorta two different things: advantage is pushing toward a moderately-good result, without the possibility of something extraordinary*, where +1 forward is a swingier, more-capricious, but also more-potentially-exceptional thing.
I don’t know if I’d want a game with both necessarily, but it’s cool that they’re implying slightly different things narratively.
* Although not really, because 13+ is the same as 12+ unless you have advanced moves, in AW
I hate advantage in PbtA. I have no justification for this. I just do.
If I’m forced to rack my brain for a “why,” it’s because it interferes with the elegance and ease of explanation of “roll 2d6+stat.”
Also, I EXTRA HATE when games use flat plusses and advantage in the same rules.
I can agree with the latter of Adam D’s last two posts.
I think if I was to use both in a game I’d keep numerical ± to the roll as a thing internal to the character that rarely changed, and advantage/disadvantage as a situational and pretty rare thing. But I can certainly see the idea that adding dice tricks to PbtA is somewhat missing the point!
I have to disagree with the elegance thing. Rolling 3 dice and dropping one is way easier than remembering to add plusses, especially when you have other plusses at work (stat, gear, etc.).
Thinking about it I could totally see a very simple PbtA system where you didn’t have numerical ratings in the stats – just Advantage in one, Disadvantage in another and neutral for the rest. Could be a useful drift for groups that are more maths-adverse…
I’m thinking of trying that for Hallway Fighter, actually.
Robert Bohl except that the explanation is more complex. “Add/subtract one” is much more straightforward to explain than “roll 3 dice and keep the highest (or lowest) two.” But I’m not married to that explanation, it’s just what came to mind when I forced myself to give reasons for my aversion.
It’s used in Spirit of ’77 isn’t it? Called “rolling with something extra/less” or thereabouts. I like it more than +1, I have to say.
Why do you like it more, Per?
For me at least, it’s easier to tie the fiction to an advantage than it is for +1 forward. It’s a gut feeling though, not anything reasoned. I think because I’m quite physical focused – getting a numerical bonus isn’t as cool as getting to roll more dice, in the same way there’s a certain magic to drawing maps.
I like that it has a name (“roll with more” or whatever), instead of +1, which is not super sexy to my ears. If it has a name, it can be slotted into the fiction better (I think, haven’t really thought a lot about it).
When you get a +1 forward (or just +1 on the roll), it’s clearly visible whether or not that modifier affected the results. If your roll would have been anything but a 6 or a 9 without the bonus, the bonus didn’t matter. And if your starting bonus is anything from -1 to +2, there’s only a 25% chance that you’ll roll a 6 or a 9 (and less chance with more extreme modifiers). Thus, there’s a high chance that at +1 modifier won’t make any actual difference and you’ll know it.
The effect of an advantage die is much less transparent. If you roll all 3 dice all at once, you don’t necessarily know which one was the bonus die. If you roll the bonus die after rolling your two dice, you get a feeling of “ooh, this might make the difference” before you roll it. The bonus feels much more tangible and important.
You can retain that “did it help” thing by using a different colored die for advantage.
In the same way that advantage (or rolling with something extra in the excellent Spirit of 77) helps more, disadvantage hurts a lot more. In Spirit of 77 you roll with something less when you are severely wounded. It really hurts. The numeric difference between changing dice versus a modifier really adds up over time.
In the case of 77, I don’t think it fits the feel they were going for in some cases. But it might be right for other games.
Personally, I just hate keep track of floating modifiers more than I hate keeping track of NPC harm. “Oh wait, you had +1 forward still. Do you add that?”
It is good to know these things.
The narrative tie-ins are also different. With advantage, the bonus doesn’t necessarily come from a previous action. It can be simply: when you do X, you have advantage. But a +1 forward implies that you’ve got narrative momentum from the action that generated the +1.
Well, you could use either one either way, but you’re right, Carrie, that each has its sweet spot.
One thing about the advantage is that it is more stackable. 3 guys can help a third for 5k2. The possibilities of a good result are high, but the possibilities of going to 15 are zero. Still in range 2-12.
With +1, in this case it would be +3, what could turn into +5 if you have a good stat, going out of the table easily.
By the way, some folks feel excited about hoarding more dice in their hands. It has nothing to do with math, but I is enjoyable for some people.
Hmmm, what about +1 forward generally, but advantage when someone helps (disadvantage when someone hinders)? I like the idea of other protagonists being a reliable source of more-powerful aid/hinderance.
I’ve mucked around with this a lot in play. In the end I’ve found that mixing the two is counter-intuitive, but in isolation they have proven excellent – for all the reasons listed in the discussion.
My favourite iteration, it must be said is Blades in the Dark, where more skill/attribute/trait equals more dice. So much so that I’ve adopted this into my World of Dungeons game holas bolas.
New players just seem to to get the dice pool concept and risking narratively more (through Devil’s Bargains or stress) for more dice seems to add to the drama at the table.
We also have added a house rule to our Dungeon World game where you can trade 5 HP for an advantage die after the roll, a la ‘stressing out’. Its a great hard choice for the player.
Robert Bohl Along those lines (though not quite), I’ve just started trying this out at my table for Dungeon World:
When you help another character who’s about to roll for a move, tell us how you do it. If everyone agrees that it would help, they roll 3d6 instead of 2d6 and take the two highest dice, but you are exposed to any risk, cost, or consequences associated with the roll.
When you jump in to help another character who just rolled, tell us how you plan to do it and ask the GM what else is required or what that consequences will be. If you get accept, increase your ally’s roll by +1.
Only had one session so far, and we almost immediately drifted to having the Aid-er roll the bonus die. (Which, yeah, meant that they could tell whether it had any impact, but they definitely liked rolling a die to contribute.)
Has anyone tried mixing the two and had it work out for them?
Did both in Dungeon World. Was ok, but definitely felt muddled at times (and really terrifying when they stacked). I like advantage/disadvantage (or Momentum/Hesitation) a lot, but would probably not mix again.
(We did the same thing with Aid Other, and the players loved it)
So Aid Other (advantage) worked mixing it with +1?
Sorry, meant I did what Jeremy Strandberg did – handed the other die to the other player.
I suspect it would have made interfere a little more toothy too, but that never came up.
Just so happens I was doing a comparison of this myself recently: http://anydice.com/program/b1d9
Best viewed as a graph with the transposed setting. Includes numeric -3..+3, Advantage/Disadvantage as well as rerolling one dice (after rolling assuming optimal strategy), and the Barbarian from Dungeon Worlds d6+d8.
0 is a failure, 1 is a 7-9, 2 is a 10+. -1 is included as a baseline so the graph has a 0-100 y-scale.