Hi everyone. I was wondering (and maybe many people have already asked about this in this case I apologize): have you ever combined random tables (sandbox/hexcrawl-style) with pbta games? For example when PCs are wandering outside their city, when time is passing or other things?
Or do you think it is totally unnatural and that since in pbta story is supposed to emerge from the PCs, it cannot come from an exterior source?
I’ve done it with solo games. It’s the only way to do it, in my opinion.
Naw, that’s completely fine. Blades in the Dark is a great example of a game with lots of PbtA DNA but which uses random tables extensively.
The decision to have “story emerge from the PCs” is entirely dependent on game’s setup. In AW or Monsterhearts, you have a colorful cast of PCs that can produce plenty of amazing drama without external threats, but there are lots of more party-based games. Dungeon World says to bring a head full of ideas at the very least – why not use random tables?
TL;DR No.
I think there is nothing worse than using random generated tables for PbtA games. If you’re pulling something randomly generated then it’s not there because it makes sense or moves the story forward. If you’re introducing stuff just to introduce stuff then you’re not doing it for the right reason. Why are you rolling on that table? What are you bringing to the game that means something to the players and to the threats you’ve created? If you are doing it because you don’t have any ideas. Calm down. Call a break. Think about it for a minute. Don’t roll on a table because you’re bored or you are too lazy to think of something better. THAT’S why this is hard. If you thought GM’ing was easy you were sorely mistaken. It takes time to think of pertinent things and bring the fiction to the players so it’s always meaning something. I’m still learning every game I run. Good luck on your journey. But don’t bring those random tables with you. You’re NEVER rolling on them for the right reason. If your table has a lot of things that are REALLY pertinent to your adventure… then… just introduce them when the time is right… what were you doing putting them in a table? If they’re not super specific and meaning full then… why have ANY of them. Sure… I hear you say, “But what if they run into bad weather or something?” But then I say… if that’s cool in your game… then make them run into weather. If you’re just putting roadblocks in the way then you’re being a shitty GM… It’s not “Play to find out the tedium of getting tasks done.” Ever played one of those old Final Fantasy games, when you got a thing and all you wanted to do was get to the town to continue your quest or build an item or something? Remember those random encounters popping up and driving you crazy because you had a fucking THING to do? That’s you… that’s what you and your random tables are. The players are playing in your game to JUST have a game where you’re going to do cool things. I don’t want a random fucking event stopping me from what I want to do. If your players don’t have things they want to do right now… I’ll say it again. Calm down. Take a break. Think about it. And then do something to make them want to do things. Show them shadows of the menacing big bad and what it’s going to do if they don’t act. If they still don’t care. Advance your threats! Make that shit bad! Make it interesting. Make it hurt them where it counts. But don’t roll on a table.
+Michael Prescott, we just finished quite a few sessions of Blades and I can’t feel more strongly that is has almost nothing to do with PbtA except for a bit of language that’s borrowed. The more I played it the more I felt this was true. I could write a rather lengthy article but for the sake of everyone’s sanity I’ll just say that a very strong reason it’s not a PbtA game is precisely because it uses random tables.
Random tables are awesome. They’re a part of Perilous Wilds, a DW supplement, and they’re cool. They’re in UW for inspiring Faction-design. They work great.
As mentioned above, well made tables can entirely be within the agendas of many pbta games and if not I’m looking forward to reading your hex-crawling pbta game’s agendas and seeing how your tables enhance those agendas.
Perilous Wilds uses random tables for Hex Crawls and randomized dungeon generation to great effect. Freebooters on the Frontier and Funnel World use them in character creation and it is tons of fun.
Brian Poe random tables have the same function that rolling the dice have: to introduce an element of uncertainty and to surprise the MC and the players. They contribute to emergent story in a similar way as asking the players for input. And yes BitD is very much inspired by the Apocalypse (probability distributions and partial successes, playbooks with preselected options, player facing mechanics, XP triggers through keys, countdown clocks and threats, abstracted gear etc)
Custom Moves in AW can entirely work very much like random tables designed to show how dangerous a particular area is, helping the MC barf forth apocalyptica.
Thanks a lot for the different answers! I sure see why people wouldn’t want to put these kind of things in a pbta game, where story is supposed to be an extension of the PCs, their actions, their dreams, etc. And in some cases, I guess a lazy use of randomness could lead the MC to their old habits.
I will definitely read Blades in the Dark (I kickstarted it but didn’t find the time before). Maybe I’ll also try Perilous Wilds.
I think Judd’s comment about Custom Moves working like random table is spot on: PbtA games are very similar to more old-school “roll on table B7 for grappling” or whatever games. Your tables are your Moves. Random tables can work great in PbtA games, as long as they’re carefully built to represent whatever game you’re using them with.
think of random tables as another PC at the table and build on the answers it gives you and you will be fine. I wouldn’t recommend relying entirely on them… maybe roll and then ask a real player what they have heard about it.
but yeah they totally work.
Horst Wurst your examples of what PbtA has in common with Blades is pretty much just words. It’s not those things that make PbtA games what they are. There are some triggers… There are playbooks… Partial successes have been around since the 80’s. They did use countdown clocks (very well I might add) but none of those things make a PbtA game. To each his own. I’m not saying it’s not fun. I’m not saying you can’t use the random tables. It’s just antithetical to the PbtA feel.
When you venture into the Plane Graveyard, Roll + Weird for whoever had the bright idea to venture into this hot mess of jet-fueled ghosts and violent graves in the first place.
On a 10+ you run into one of the following, MC’s choice:
A group of scavengers who need your help.
An airplane’s ghost, looking for a new pilot.
Another bit of apocalyptic oddness that the MC will grab that is looking for something you’ve got but isn’t violent just yet.
On a 7-9 you run into a few of the following and they’re fighting over something. You’re in the crossfire but they haven’t seen you just yet…
Roark’s assholes
Million’s goons
A fighter-jet wraith
scavenger clans from the wastes
On a miss, the MC will look at the list of stuff above and one or more of them is on your trail, hunting you down, ready to wet the desert ground with your blood.
Get out of here with that random table, Judd! They’re not allowed! 😉
Brian Poe I think this conversation is showing that when people play PbtA games, they feel different things.
Yeah, I personally use them for small color and encounter tables in AW. That is, I create Locations and Fronts that have some variability within them. I wouldn’t use them for major stuff, however, that feels to me like flying against mode.
Some of my subsequent PbtA games use random tables. Totally fine.
I highly recommend Perilous Wilds, Freebooters of the Frontier, and other works from the same publisher.
I highly recommend Perilous Wilds, Freebooters of the Frontier, and other works from the same publisher.
I’ve used The GameMaster’s Apprentice deck when I get stumped for NPC reaction or scene in AW. I don’t get too deep into it. Just want a quick/random idea of where I should go. It’s worked reasonably well.
Brian Poe, “PbtA” means that the game was inspired by Apocalypse World. It has no mechanical significance. If Blades was inspired by AW, it’s PbtA.
apocalypse-world.com – Powered by the Apocalypse
Random generation is only as “lazy” as the GM who uses it. It challenges you to set aside conscious decision making in favor of asking the universe what it has to offer and then finding a way to fold that sensibly into the fiction. If we only ever look inward, we’re more likely to fall back on formula and cliché.
Interesting discussion. I’m planning on trying something solo with PbtA this November for SGAM2017. [So many fun systems out there that there’s no way my regular group can get to them all.] Thus, some form of random generation will probably be a necessity. But, will it just be sparks for inspiration with me wearing a lot of hats or something crazy like a ‘MC moves emulator’ oracle that I’ll inflict on the party? Still rolling that around in my head. 🙂
Maybe I missed it somewhere among the replies here but what would a random encounter or random event custom move look like?
Judd Karlman gave a good example farther up thread, actually, Jamie Roberts. Scroll back up and I think you’ll find it.
Since the beginning of my interrogations, I’ve tried to create a few random tables and use them. Right now, I have only been able to put one in place: since the PCs live in an abandoned Buddhist temple, when one of them wants to draw a fortune paper, I make a roll on the table (D66, if I want to be mean the lowest one gives the tens). With results such as “You will find back something you lost” but also “Help me, they make me write those papers” or “I know that you [insert here on the PC’s dirty secrets]”.
It’s like a custom move with integrated random table.
I like that, especially if the Buddist prayer tree is actually a quest giver. The players should always be wondering if they’re getting random things or if there is an order and meaning to these events. 🙂
For DW, it’s almost a staple – are they wandering in the Dark Forest of even darker Perils? If I have a table handy, I will roll on it – and then play to see what happens, next.
Random things are a really potent tool to surprise all players, including MC.
Granted, I am not completely sure it’s would work with MH or Masks (but I need to think more on this).