So the child thing.

44 thoughts on “So the child thing.”

1. I think it’s more… if your character is close enough to the cusp of adulthood that all the players (including the GM) think that this is a good idea, or even just what probably happens next, then you’re pretty clearly no longer a child-thing. So, before anything else happens, what are you now? I mean, almost everyone’s got a first time at some point, and it doesn’t by definition have to be inherently abusive or traumatic.

   And don’t forget you’re perfectly entitled to, at the start of any game, draw lines about what situations you don’t want to come up in the game, and not play with people who don’t respect those lines.

2. Oh I’m completely aware of playing with boundaries and I totally see the intention of the sex move. But putting this book in play creates a strong possibility of sex with a pc, and other playbooks do not have that aspect of innocence that would make for equity in the relationship. As far as being emergent adults, I taught highschool. I’d say a majority of my students were sexual active, and many more so than myself. I decent number of them were over 18. But if I found out that one of my over 18 students who was highly active was having sex with a 24 year old, even within the confines of a committed relationship, I would still think that 24 year old was the scum of the earth and completely deserving of all the ire society could level against them.

3. If I were at a table, I would effectively nerf someone else’s character by saying they couldn’t play their sex move.

4. I get the strong emotions involved here, but David Rothfeder , you skipped over or missed the central point that Ben Wray  was making. Before the characters have sex, the Child Thing is literally no longer a Child Thing. The innocence is gone. 

   Also, I think it’s pretty safe to say that innocence is at a premium in AW. The Child Thing character may be innocent to start, but the kinds of stories being told in AW won’t support that innocence for long. Would you honestly argue that the playbook’s obvious inspiration in Road Warrior’s Feral Kid was in any real sense “innocent”? Not sure that really stands up when he’s lodging a steel boomerang in some raider’s skull. He’s a killer and a survivor. By definition in no real way “innocent”. That said, I still don’t think sex with the Feral Kid is an appropriate thing, but the Feral Kid will grow up.

   A Boy and His Dog is pretty much entirely about an eighteen year old boy trying to get laid. 

   All in all, I think the majority of AW players are mature enough to handle the playbook in a sane, reasonable way. Of course, there’s a possibility it could be exploited, but then, that’s pretty much always the case. There’s nothing on the Skinner’s playbook that says anything about age. There’s always going to be people that take something to a creepy, inappropriate place. Just don’t play with those people. I’m not sure the content of games in which we aren’t involved is really any of our business, anyway.

   To take it further, let’s say someone does take it to a creepy “inappropriate” place. As long as there aren’t actual, flesh and blood children involved in the game, so what? What does it matter what content someone chooses to have in their AW games? Nobody is being exploited. Nothing is being violated. Please note, I’m the parent of a young girl. I’m not blase about the concept of child exploitation. It’s a major part of the reason I feel I can comment on this. If no children are being exploited, then what does it matter? Just don’t play with those people.

5. Sex moves in RPGs are juvenile, it reminds me of a bunch of pre-teens around a porno mag.

6. I’m confused.  Are we talking about the shapeshifting maelstrom fey that dies if tries to have sex?

7. >>Just about the only thing I don’t want to see in a role playing game is an underage or otherwise unprepared individual entering into a sexual relationship they are not prepare for with somebody who knows exactly what their doing.

   OK. Then don’t do it please. Problem solved.

   P.S. I really really hope that The Child-Thing doesn’t get gutted just because someone saw something he doesn’t like there.

8. Nikos Carcosa​, I’d like to adress some of your points.

   First off, to say that the character is no longer a child once they start having sex I feel completely ignores my issue. I don’t have a problem with sexual active children (well, sexually active kids who have at least started puberty). I have a problem with what it means for an adult to have sex with somebody who does not yet have the experience to understand themselves in light of thier sexuality. To say that difference in understanding oneself is overcome the second a person chooses (or is force into) sex is pretty irresponsible in my opinion. One of the biggest changes from your teenage years to adulthood is the solidifcation of a sense of self, and I feel it is too easy for an adult with an understanding of them self to irrevocably shape an emerging adult through a sexual relationship.

   As far as the inspiration not being an innocent character, I whole heartily disagree. I have to own up and admit I haven’t seen road warrior, but I have never seen a convincing portrayal of a child without any sense of innocence. You have to remember, innocence isn’t an all or nothing thing. Being able to murder without a second thought does not preclude a person from having child like wonder, or not understanding adult thought processes. I have met fully capable adults in thier 30’s who have retained innocence. I’d like to think without any a person would be a monster. But this playbook to me is about that characteristic, about how it is maintained and how it is lost. I really want to see this played and played well. I don’t want it summed up by one event.

   Finally, I never said that this playbook should never be played. I want it played. I want to play it. I just don’t want to be there when the child thing decides its ok to fuck the gunlugger because it’s no big deal and they want to be a brainer. I’d be way more willing to play a game where the hardholder uses thier kindness to take advantage of the child thing. That hard holder is a piece of shit. I can’t wait for thier gang to draw and quarter the dipshit with motorcycles. There really wouldn’t be a question that they deserves it because they are an awful fuck. But honestly I’d just rather not see it at all in my game. You might say nobody gets hurt, but that’s not entirely true. I’ll be hurt because I’ll get mad and I really don’t like that (I don’t get angry often but those close to me know I can have a dire temper). If your ok with this kind of exploitation in your game I won’t think less of you, but keep it the hell away from me.

9. Pavel Berlin​, I never suggested it, and if somebody did I would tell them it’s a terrible idea change the playbook over this. I felt the possibility of this showing up in games should be addressed. I tried very clear to voice this in the tone of my feelings and opinions, not in absolutes.

10. David Rothfeder  If your concept of innocence is one that is retained after intentionally and gleefully taking someone’s life, then we are functioning on very different definitions.

    I’ve seen several interpretations of the Faceless that most definitely show “childlike wonder”. Would you have a problem with someone having sex with the Faceless? Innocence  is certainly not wholly defined by chronological age, and if the Feral Kid is innocent, then so are many Faceless.

    Fundamentally, the move, like any other AW move, follows the fiction. Honestly, it’s either change the playbook, so that the Child Thing is no longer an explicitly adolescent character, or simply don’t have a sex move– which seems odd given AW. The move ensures the Child Thing isn’t a child anymore before sexy time starts. How many coming-of-age stories are centered on sexual awakening? I’d be willing to guess the vast majority of them. Sexuality is most definitely an element of entering adulthood (and sexual maturity is a pretty functional biological definition of adulthood).

    Yes, Older people engaged in sex with younger people is taboo in our culture, but AW isn’t our culture. The age of consent isn’t consistent across American states, let alone across the globe. AW is a world where the fact that your next breath could be your last is keenly felt by each person. It makes sense in the fiction. 

    Also, I go back to my assertion that the vast majority of players will handle this “appropriately”, and as far as those who don’t…. who cares? If it’s that much of an issue, make “Nobody gets to fuck the Child Thing” a hard limit during the initial conversation. Beyond that, are you genuinely worried about content you consider inappropriate in games with which you’ll literally have no exposure? That seems very odd to me.

11. Nikos Carcosa​, I feel a lot of the points I was trying to make have been lost here. I’d like to point out a few of them.

    1. I don’t see innocence as a binary yes or no thing. It is possible for a person to be innocent in some ways and hardened in others.

    2. I hope that all people (and thus characters) have some degree of innocence.

    3. I think that the arguement that a person can go from from childlike to sexually confident in a single moment is dangerous and insulting.

    4. Other people can play the game however the hell they want, but I’m hoping they give thought to this issue.

    5. I don’t give a fuck if you think it’s ok to let this playbook casually address sex with adults, I will still have a legitimate emotional response to it and thus I don’t want any part of it, so make sure it’s not part of a game where I’m involved.

    6. I have no problem with a character from this playbook in thier teens exploring sexuality with another character of similiar age.

12. David Rothfeder I think your concerns are absolutely valid and I am glad you brought them up. Hopefully the conversation stays civil in spite of the emotional topic. My take on this: If there ever was a good reason to introduce the concept of “lines” and “veils” or the x- card the child thing playbook definitely is. I think that every gaming group has to find their own way to deal with the playbook and I have no doubt the majority will do so responsibly.

13. I personnaly find completely disgusting the idea of killing and torturing people in real life. I hate muderers.

    Yet, My characters (and almost all the PCs I encountered) have done those things, at some point or another, in the fictional space that is an AW roleplaying session.

    Why should it be different for teenage sexuality ?

    Is it worse for a PC to have sex with an “innocent” teenager than killing scores of “innocent” people ?

    I don’t think so.

    Both those things are abject and disgusting in real life.

    But both are dramatic situations that make for interesting fictional content to explore, just like mental abuse, brute force domination, war, diseases, corruption, suicide, personnal ordeals and all the things we would never want to experience in real life.

    That’s why I,  and most of the people I know, roleplay or read books or watch movies.

    We want to imagine what it would be to live and experience different things, even if they are horrible things, from the comfort of our armchairs.

    And as long as everybody at the table agree on what’s appropriate at their  table or not, then everything is fine.

    That said, I respect David Rothfeder ‘s opinion, and I hope he’ll understand and respect the fact that some of us have as strong an emotional response when “innocent” people are killed or tortured by PCs as when “innocent” teenagers have sex with PCs, but still may want to explore all those fictional landscapes (and many more), in our AW games.

14. (Mostly listening and reading for now. Good points raised by various voices, and as designers, sex ed teachers, parents, and huge advocates of kids and teens in general and kids and teens having informed, equal, consensual and healthy sexual development in particular, know that we have thought about all this and will continue to as we refine the wording of the move to convey exactly the meaning we want.)

15. The differences are that almost none of the people at the table have ever committed murder of torture.

    I guarantee, if you play for more than a little while, you’ll have a victim of molestation at your table.

    Again, suggesting that you just x-card it means you are telling the other players at the table to deliberately take away from one of the other players’ options. Not only is that not cool, it’s also not something most players are comfortable with. If I sit down at a d&d table, I don’t expect to be able to tell the wizard they can’t memorize fireball.

16. That’s a valid point, Stephanie Bryant .

    But at your table, you might also have relatives or close friends of people who commited suicide, were shot dead by a mugger, had a sibling or a friend suffering from drug abuse or had a disabled child.

    Does this mean that we should refrain from ever touching those subjects in our RPG sessions, in case people suffering or having suffered from terrible things done to their relatives, but that our characters do while we roleplay, would be at our table ?

    In that case, why roleplay, then ?

17. Looks like a very interesting character that could be tons of fun to play.

    While sex moves have rarely come up in the games I’ve played in, I find them interesting hints at the inner workings of the characters. The Child Thing has a pretty significant incentive to avoid sex. In fact, they’ve got a significant penalty if they do. (Not that they actually can, since they switch playbooks before it happens…which right there means they can pick their character’s feelings about what happened by selecting the appropriate playbook)

18. Philip Espi​, I have no problem with others drawing veils and lines. In fact my post is basically saying that I’ll find them very needed with this playbook. Other people will likely have different concerns with children in rpgs. With this post I was merely trying to express my feelings on the issue and hopefully convince others to be more thoughtful in thier sexual interactions with this playbook.

19. The move would probably bother me in a world of traditional power dynamics, of adult authority over children. I don’t see Apocalypse World as that world, though, which smooths my feathers to a certain degree. I imagine that years of Monsterhearts likewise helps.

20. “Then don’t do it” is not really an option when the rules of the game strongly suggest that you can do that thing. 

    I agree with David Rothfeder btw, this is a thing I would not want at my table, especially with a Brainer *Unnatural Lust Fixation*ing the Child Thing. 

21. Meguey Baker I’m not sure how the move can it can be any more explicit.

22. It might have to change utterly to make the point we want to make. We’ll see.

23. David Rothfeder  

    ” I don’t give a fuck if you think it’s ok to let this playbook casually address sex with adults, I will still have a legitimate emotional response to it and thus I don’t want any part of it, so make sure it’s not part of a game where I’m involved.”

    First off, chill out. Keep the conversation civil. I in no way invalidated your feelings or opinion, and explicitly stated that I understand the strong emotions involved here.We are both adults here, There is absolutely no need for that. Secondly, you’re more or less insisting on doing exactly what several of us have suggested, and exactly what I explicitly suggested, so I really don’t see where the animosity is coming from. 

    However, I personally think that, so long as no actual children are involved, I don’t really see the problem with the playbook. I frankly see no harm in anyone pretending anything they want in a consensual, safe space, so long as no one is actually being exploited or hurt. If you (or anyone) can explain where the harm in consenting adults pretending to do inappropriate things, I’m open to pretty much any discussion, so long as it’s civil. 

24. And, as has been mentioned above, AW characters regularly torture, murder, and explode other characters. As David said, innocence is not an “all or nothing” thing. What doesn’t follow for me is that gleeful murder doesn’t mean one loses their innocence, but consensual sex does. That isn’t a consistent stance. I get that you have strong emotions tied to one and not the other. So probably the where we’re crossing wires is that I’m coming at this from a rational standpoint, whereas you’re coming from a strongly emotional one. This is the same sort of stance that means full frontal nudity gets a movie landed in the wasteland of NC-17, but full on explicit gore and torture gets an R. 

25. Nikos, I swore there because I’m talking about AW. I’m using the appropriate vocabulary.

    But at this point I’m not sure what your intention is. You say your not trying to invalidate my opinions and yet your still arguing against them. I never asked you to believe as I do. I didn’t ask for changes to the playbook. I just wanted to express my thoughts with the hope that others and myself would give it more thought. But if your trying to turn this into a debate, which is not what I want, then I guess it would have to against either my position that I should express my thought or that people should think on thier own.

    SEE, THAT STRATEGY RIGHT THERE IS WHY DEBATES SUCK. IT’S A TOTAL DICK MOVE AND IT LOCKS YOU IN A RHETORICAL BOX.

    So please, let’s drop these debate techniques. Saying that your coming from this from a logical angle where I am from an emotional is the same thing. I started this thread talking about this from an emotional angle. That doesn’t automatically make my view non logical, nor does it automatically make decenting one logical. The truth is, most emotions are logical. They come from somewhere. They follow cause and effect. They are important, but they aren’t universal.

    But my biggest issue here Nikos is that I feel like you aren’t really reading what I have said. It’s more like your skimming for points to argue against. You mentioned how I disagree with all or nothing inocence, but you ignored how I said it is possible for a character to be innocent in some ways but hardened in others. You keep talking about a child gleefully murdering, but it’s not something that I’ve been talking about. I can only assume that it has to do with a character from Mad Max that I have said I only have passing familiarity with.

    I do want to apologize for picking apart your words, but some of the things I saw I found to be bad form. It was the sort of thing that I’ve seen create toxic threads. Calling you out on it is a shitty thing to do. I accept full responsibility for that. So there, we were both shitty so then we can get to what should have been said a day ago. We disagree, and that’s fine.

26. Ok, with that out of my system, Meguey Baker​. I do really love this sex move. I totally see in it a juvenile perspective that sex changes who you are. I see the expectation that milestones mean a loss of innocence and a gain of maturity. It is something I’m very interested in seeing in play, so I hope this move doesn’t die.

27. Not trying to debate, either. You.started a discussion thread, and I’m just trying to discuss. Will you acknowledge that you’re saying essentially that you don’t give a fuck what I’m thinking would give the strong suggestion that you aren’t interested in having a rational conversation? The “we’re talking about AW” is kind of weak sauce. It isn’t that you swore, I don’t give two fucking fucks how many fuck bombs you drop, it’s the rest of the comment I took issue with.

    Not sure how presenting a view point counter to yours means I’m somehow invalidating your opinion.

    I’ve extrapolated on the reason for bringing up murder twice. My point, again, is that I do not understand your insistence that innocence can be maintained through murder, but not consensual sex. In fact, what I find most unsettling about the sex move is that there is no equivalent “milestone” for the likely inevitable violence the child will engage in. not just picking points to counter, I’m asking consistent questions. 

28. But what your not hearing is that I’m not making the point your asking about. I’m not saying anything about child violence. I am saying that it is possible to have an innocence in one aspect, like violence, but none in another, like sex. But what I am saying is that you are not posing this as a question. You’re posing this as if your trying to win.

29. And so vocal minority gets it again by ringing the alarms and shouting. I just cannot express how tired I’m of this shit.

    You know if you are silent about torture and murder, but try to show your high moral ground when sex matter are mentioned its a very perverted way of thinking.

    A child character in Apocalypse World is subject to so many worse things then sex, maybe you should just remove children from the game, like they do in certain videogames now?

30. Pavel Berlin​, don’t claim who the majority and minority are, you don’t know unless you’ve polled the entire population. I am only speaking for myself and my concern over one potential outcome of a draft. This is not a debate. I am not talking about children involved in violence. That is a very different discussion. I am, not calling for censorship, only to express concern and for others to THINK about how they feel about it. If you are trying to prove a point, please do so elsewhere. I won’t follow because I have no interest in doing the same.

31. David Rothfeder, as you started a public thread, you have to  ear our concerns too.

    You’re telling us that teenage sex with adults in an Post-apocalypse setting makes you fucking mad and that you wouldn’t want to see it played just for the possibility of this situation coming up unless it was played by somebody you have absolute trust in. (your words).

    I’m telling you that murder and torture, for me, is far worse.

    But I (we) want my (our) characters to be able to do those things int this fictional post-apocalyptic landscape and I (we) want the choice of drawing veils and lines to be in our hands, not in the hands of vocal censors who don’t like some of the playbooks/moves.

    That’s why I, too, am voicing my concern in this thread.

    That’s why I’m begging the authors to give us many warped and perverted playbooks and moves so that we, the players of their Apocalyptic game, have the freedom of choosing by ourselves what playbooks we want to include in our games.

32. Hey friends!

    If I were to make a playbook whose purpose is to consider, approach, and deal with adolescent sexuality, it would be different from this one. This one is NOT well-designed to take the topic on.

    I’d hoped that this move would communicate it, but clearly – it’s not just this thread – it doesn’t. Instead of deflecting the question, it focuses it. Lots of people are getting hung up on it, when it’s supposed to signal them to move on.

    So we WILL be changing the move, because adolescent sexuality isn’t what the child-thing is about, and it’s interfering with what IS cool about the playbook. Those of you who’ve now committed yourself to the idea, pro or con, will be disappointed with the changes we make, but that’s life.

    Thanks!

33. Philip Espi​, thank you. I can see you have given this thought and formed your own opinion. It looks like it differs from mine, and that’s cool. I’d like to thank you for expressing your views.

    Vincent Baker​, it makes me a bit sad that the move is changing, because it was cool, but I was also worried about what could happen at the table because of it. I’m glad that you gave the issue some thought.

34. Sad

35. Understandable. Maybe something like the Maestro D that replaces how other special moves interact with the character? “When you first place your trust in an adult, and show that trust, they may use their special move on you, instead of the normal trigger.”

36. The Maestro’D interacted really weirdly with this playbook anyway… 

37. Oh jeez Tim Franzke​, that would be so messed up. The battle babe too.

38. David Rothfeder The Child Thing’s Special wouldn’t be effected by the Battle Babe’s special by my reading. The Child Thing’s Special happens before sex. So they would switch playbooks, then sex happens. The PC would no longer be a Child Thing when the Battle Babe’s special triggers. Now the Maestro’D…that one would indeed be odd. Give the Child Thing some food, and their class changes. 

39. Folks, I’m going to close the thread so it’s not still working on out-dated material or retreading previous ground. Thanks!

40. Censorship won. A pity.

41. Pavel Berlin, kindly re-read Vincent’s comment above. Thanks.

42. Don’t worry Pavel Berlin .

    Vincent and Meguey are good and intelligent people.

    You should trust them when they say the move is not working as intended and that’s why they’re gonna change it.

    I’m sure they will make the right choices and whatever comes up from it, it will be interesting.

43. Philip Espi I really hope so. It’s just this whole sitch reminds me of our local TV channel that shows car accidents and murder victims in primetime in all the graphic details, but covers female breasts in the movies shown after that.

    But I’m eager to be shown that my concerns are nothing 🙂

44. Philip Espi  Bloody well exactly my point. Thank you! 

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