Hi. I have a question about “shut someone down” move. In our PBF session, we have a ghost and a rusalka. The scene is as following – both of them are in the abandoned mansion, where the ghost lives. Rusalka is peeking around, ghost is in her darkest self, immaterial and unable to do anything except interacting with objects. Rusalka discovered some hidden room, with some witchy stuff. Ghost thinks it’s related to the mystery of her death and she said she wants to take a magic book rusalka is picking up, and hit her with it right in the face. Now, rusalka have no idea that this strange thing doing some poltergeist-like stuff is our ghost.
My problem is – our MC, without the ghost player even saying what she wants to do, what is her intention, said she should pick – is she using shut somebody down, or lash out physically. I think none of the moves can be used, because ghost is in her darkest self. She is unable to shut somebody down – they are not in this kind of interaction, rusalka doesn’t even know the ghost is the one hitting her. My opinion is MC should rather let rusalka decide – is she struggling and doesn’t want to let the book go? Is she in shock so book hits her, and what later? Do you think ghost in darkest self is able to lash out physically (move implies there have to be some struggle, trading harm both ways etc) or shut someone down? Using only material objects?
(sorry for my bad english, not a native speaker)
The person who wants something to happen is the person who makes the move. Since the Ghost wants something (hit the Rusalka in the face), that’s the move. Then question what the Ghost wants to happen do they want to hit the Rusalka to hurt them [Lash Out Physically]? Or to make them end a social interaction [Shut Someone Down]. Since the Rusalka doesn’t realize they’re in a social situation, that doesn’t seem to be the right move. It sounds like the Ghost is trying to just hurt the Rusalka, so the Ghost should do Lash Out Physically. If the goal is something else (get them to leave, scare them, etc.), then it’s really not calling for a move. The Ghost should spend a string to offer xp to do what she wants. If she don’t have a string on the Rusalka, then her options are limited.
As for what the ghost can do in Darkest Self, they can totally still use moves, I think. Even though the Rusalka couldn’t physically hurt the Ghost, the Ghost could still suffer harm in some other way. Maybe when her body reforms, she feels pain or incompleteness. Maybe it’s constant nosebleeds, or she comes back with a disfigurement. The harm doesn’t have to come directly from the person being lashed out at, it just has to be a result of the action.
As Adam says, I completely agree that it’s down to the Ghost in this situation as to what move is triggered by what they’re doing in the fiction, and I also agree that Shut Someone Down would be a tough move to trigger in this situation as – for me – it’s about putting people in their place in the social order rather than literally shutting them down.
While a Ghost in Darkest Self can’t be seen, felt or heard, they can still affect inanimate objects – so I think it’s perfectly valid for them to use moves (it certainly doesn’t say that they can’t). But I agree that spending strings is probably a more interesting way to go:
– as well as spending a string to offer them XP to have the other PC leave, you can also
– spend a string to force them to Hold Steady to continue exploring
– spend a string to place a Condition on them
Note that, short of killing them, the Ghost can’t outright prevent another PC from doing what they are determined to do. This is all part of the basic aspect of MH that no player can make a player do anything they don’t want to. However – if I were MC – then I would expect a player to reflect the mechanics in the narrative (e.g. if they failed a Hold Steady roll then I would reckon they would probably start heading for an exit) and if not I woud get increasingly Hard Move-y on them.
Well, she (ghost) said she wants to take away the book and hit rusalka in the head. After MC asked to choose one of the two moves, she said she don’t want to hurt the rusalka. But because MC offered two moves, she simply chose one – player is not familiar with basic moves and rarely using them. So she was offered the choice and that caused her to chose shut somebody down.
I know ghost in darkest self can move objects. But what should this cause? She can inflict harm. Sure. But why using a move for this? Isn’t MC allowed to use a hard move in such a situation?
Also, I think shut someone down is pretty odd here. In this particuliar situation. Why is this shutting her down? Maybe rusalka should just roll to hold steady? I’m not convinced the moves are working that way, especially shut someone down – in explanation in the rulebook there is ” In the 7-9 results,
you end up going down with them. Your harsh words hurt and defame them, but also expose your true character in an ugly way.”
Of course it’s up to MC, but I’m dissatisfied with this situation and with using moves in that way. I think shut someone down is a move used in a social interaction, when words are used.
But the roll was made and ghost chose “you each give a condition to each other” and it just doesn’t make sense to me.
IMO the MC did the right thing in not just leaping straight to Lash Out Physically move and stop and ask what the Ghost’s intention was. I think there’s an example in the book where the MC offers a choice between Lash Out and Shut Down which is maybe why the MC thought of it.
But I think we all agree (so far in this thread) that Shut Down isn’t the right move here. Shut Down is, in my opinion, badly titled and not well explained in MH and causes a lot of confusion. Ross Cowman rewrote the move in his Crabby basic moves and I rewrote it as Put Someone In Their Place here
https://plus.google.com/104855606903841258736/posts/fA7dQ4Mzmu1
Just from what you’ve written, I think the Ghost’s real intention is to draw the other PC’s attention to the magic book and there’s no move for that. And that’s okay, there isn’t and doesn’t have to be a move for everything the PCs do. Remember, a move has to be triggered in the conversation, so if a move isn’t triggered then you don’t have to pick a move – the action just happens. So, the MC could well have just said to the Rusalka:
“The book has flown forward and smacked you in the face (no harm). What do you do?”
For what it matters, I totally agree with the last post by Richard Williams.
Well, ghost player said she will follow her and she wants to hit her – but not that she is doing this, so I think MC should wait and see, not suggest things to the player and not pushing into action. But, besides – she said she doesn’t want to harm her, but to teach her not to sneak around. But that was said after MC implied she can use shut someone down OR lash out physically.
Lash out… is problematic for me, when I think – what about all the options? Is move a valid move even if there is an option that can’t be chosen? What if there are no strings and player wants to choose option with losing strings for each other? Is it allowed?
But the ghost player said this is not lashing out. She wanted to humble rusalka, to tell her not to look around this house. So I like this option “The book has flown forward and smacked you in the face (no harm). What do you do?”very much. Especially, because my MC is not asking – what do you do, he is suggesting the options to choose and I think my co-players are very inactive and passive (ghost initially said she is following rusalka and is rather thinking about the desire of hitting her with the book, cause she wants to know what is in the book in the first place; it was MC who said – do you want to lash out or shut her down). And I think it’s disturbing the course of the play. And that’s what’s really concerning me here. This, and using moves in a way I would never think of.
I think hitting someone with a book triggers Lash Out. If you want to honor that the ghost can’t be felt then Harm as Established is 0.
I think it’s totally okay for the MC to be suggesting options for moves BUT based on what the intent of the character is. That’s totally within the MC’s role. Find out what the intention of the character is and make a roll for it.
And as for your question about whether or not the move is still valid even if not all options would work, I think so. If you make it so you each lose a string, but you don’t have any string to lose, that’s all the more advantageous to you. It’s totally okay. It’s also okay to alter the options slightly, as long as they’re equal. Maybe you don’t give harm, but you take a string instead. Maybe you get a different condition than the one listed. It’s really okay.
In Monsterhearts, the rules aren’t there to be unbreakable or unalterable. They’re there for guidance and balance. If they don’t fit perfectly, it’s okay to alter them.
From what you’ve said of this particular situation, I would’ve suggested the Ghost spend a string to force the Rusalka to Hold Steady in order to continue exploring. Or to offer an xp to go away. But that’s my armchair opinion. As long as the decision you guys reached results in fun and drama and character development… that’s all that really matters.
But isn’t this a story game, the one constructed in a way that calls for players to act and create situations, not merely following around where the narration leads them?
I want to play a game based on powered by apocalypse, that has it’s own mechanisms and a mechanic that is regulating the converstation. I find it hard to play when I see my co- gamers and my MC are not understanding the game and the way it’s written.
It’s no fun for me.
From my reading of this thread, I don’t see anyone disagreeing with that. MC styles will vary (and indeed my own has varied as I’ve gained experience). The “conversation -> move -> consequence -> what do you do? -> conversation” basic AW cycle is key to MH though. I’ve MCed and found myself tripping over moves as I’ve encouraged them too much, equally I’ve had scenes lock and repeat as I haven’t encouraged someone to roll dice. I’ve left things too open for players and I’ve also jammed them down a railroad.
From what you’ve described, what I would strongly suggest is that you have a chat with your MC outside the game and go through what you’re finding fun and not so fun about the game they’re running and talk through what you were expecting to get from a Monsterhearts game. It’s definitely no good to sit there having no fun.
Over the years, I’ve definitely had my struggles with the MC role, and would always look to incorporate and address feedback from a player.