Skin in progress. Submitted for the approval of the Midnight Society:

15 thoughts on “Skin in progress. Submitted for the approval of the Midnight Society:”

1. This take on the supervillain is wildly, wildly more powerful than any other class. If the Shadow’s able able to kill people for free or prevent yourself from being killed (or take over another person’s character sheet!), there’s no reason to play anything else.

2. Maybe? grins But I think its apparent power is deceptive– or at least, that’s how it’s meant to be. Death is pretty cheap in Monsterhearts as it is. PCs have the option to Avoid Death, and the Shadow’s sex move/free kill only really works once. Even if the would-be victim doesn’t twig to the Shadow’s true nature (negating the move entirely), they’re still put on their guard. They probably won’t go anywhere with the Shadow alone after that. They might not do it to begin with– not without a hefty String investment by the Shadow.

   Either way, the Shadow’s sex move is more of a dramatic choice than an effective killing tool. If you really wanted another PC dead, straight damage is probably more reliable. But nobody can rack up an NPC body count like the Shadow.

   Likewise, as the Shadow, taking any of If You Kill Him…, Last Testament, or Shed Your Skin is a metagame choice as well. You’re painting a target on your head. Either you want to die (but Last Testament is fairly limiting, and If You Kill Him… requires the other character’s permission), or you want to make the idea of killing you seem too dangerous to contemplate.

   I feel like the skin is powerful, but in fairly specific circumstances. Maybe the language of how and when the moves come into play needs to be tighter?

3. I have to agree with Adam Goldberg; this Skin seems outrageously powerful. There are, quite frankly, Moves here that simply break the game. In it’s current form this Skin would never be allowed at my table under any circumstances.

   I’ll write up more detailed feedback in a bit, but my initial thought is this: most Moves in Monsterhearts get the characters deeper into trouble, or provide a temporary solution at the cost of more trouble later on. The current Moves for The Shadow feel like some kind of power combo.

4. Matt Gnof My thought was that this doesn’t feel like a very teenage skin.  And to sort of pile on with Christopher Stone-Bush ‘s sentiments, you would make it so by balancing the power with places that the skin is vulnerable.

   Like, to use a movie reference, the Skin shouldn’t be Leon.  The Skin should be Mathilda.  Or it should be Quinn, not Huck.

   Although, as I typed up those two examples with characters that are really just assassins, I’m thinking that instead you might want to revamp it so that the Skin starts as a pawn themself?  But gives them the chance to call in contracts or kill targets.  Sort of like a professional shadow-crime version of Topher Gerkey ‘s Slenderman inspired Skin.  Because right now I don’t see how the role is exploring teenage power struggles, seems more like awesome inspiration for a Menace.

   Edited to add: I think you can keep more of the feel that you have for it now if you change the moves where the Shadow just does stuff via strings into rolls.  In order to reinsert the possibility of failure.  The Skin seems just way too competent.

5. One of the things I’m writing up as part of my feedback is how providing the option to play as an adult just feels wrong. As dave ring said, in its current incarnation, this does not feel like a teenage Skin, which I feel is a requirement for #Monsterhearts.

6. Thanks for the feedback, it’s very much appreciated. The flavour’s off, I do know that. It needs a lot of work.

   I don’t think the Shadow has to be an adult, just that it could be, but as written it doesn’t give much teen drama to feed on. I like the possibility of players being able to play the Mayor and Faith, or Xander and the evil teacher, but if I could inject some teenage vulnerability that would hopefully help it fit better into the game.

   But it’s that kind of complicated adolescent reaction to authority is what I was wanting to explore with the skin. Possibly with the Shadow itself, but much more so with how others react to the Shadow. That’s part of why it has a lot of offscreen power, and the kind of authority even the most privileged teenagers could never have. But the vampire can be hundreds of years old and trapped in a teenage body, and I don’t think that the Shadow’s mechanically too far gone from the other skins. Some of the moves need nerfing, and the skin probably has too many moves as it is.

   On that note, I wasn’t quite sure about it before, but with your mention of assassins I think there might be two skins in one here, and they need to be separated: the behind-the-scenes sinister chessmaster who’s all about manipulating people, supernaturally or otherwise, and the straight-up killer, the who’s-the-real-monster human. Maybe the latter could be called the Stalker, with all the connotations that brings.

   Made a few edits. The Shadow’s sex move and Shed Your Skin (both of which might end up being scrapped altogether, but we’ll see) now cost Strings to use, and made Conspiracy of Silence a little less broad. I’ve made If You Kill Him… harder to trigger, but I really like what it does and the decision on whether it happens still ultimately rests with the other player. Added a couple of new moves, put Predatory and Devouring to one side. In Background, someone starts off knowing the Shadow’s secret and has four(?) Strings on them.

7. I don’t see the “complicated adolescent reaction to authority” you’re going for . I see a Skin that is specifically focused on killing other characters, both PC and NPC. I don’t like that at all, and I would still not allow this Skin at my table. Monsterhearts is already a heavily player vs player game, and the normal Skins are already quite capable at killing character if they want to. This Skin just cranks that dial up to 13.

   Several Moves allow the Shadow to get off scott free, which I have a big problem with. They’re the Moves  dave ring is probably talking about when he says the Skin feels way too competent.

   Conspiracy of Lies:

   I’m sorry, but his Move is broken. Preventing people you hurt from being able to talk about it is massively powerful. It allows the Shadow to walk around hurting everyone with absolutely no consequences. And as “people you have Strings on won’t suspect you” unless they were there, the PCs can’t do anything unless they witness you hurting someone. Plus the Shadow”s Backstory automatically gives them a String on everyone as soon as you meet them. This combination is so outrageously powerful, I’d ban the Shadow from my table just for this one Move.

   The Outsider: 

   How does someone “reject your Darkest Self”? I don’t think this Move works. I also don’t like that the Move dictates how a PC must respond to the Shadow. Granting the +1 forward to run away says “Hey! Run away from the Shadow” instead of letting the player decide how to react.

   Surrogate:

   The Move needs clarification. Who rolls the dice and what character’s stats do you use when someone else is speaking for you?

   Abuse of Power:

   This is one of the few Moves I feel is power-level appropriate.

   Darkest Mirror:

   So, the Shadow gains a String on someone any time they Gaze into the Abyss, regardless of fictional circumstances? Again, I feel this Move is way too powerful. It’s this kind of Move that make me say the Shadow feels like a “power combo” Skin. So many of the Shadow’s other Moves give them a bonus for having Strings on people, that allowing them to get Strings for free is just broken.

   Sever:

   This Move is OK, but I’d like to see some fictional reason why the Shadow can do this. Right now it’s just mechanics.

   If You Kill Him, You’ll Be Just Like Him:

   I hate the idea of even being able to ask for another player’s character, regardless of any conditions that doing so may have.

   Last Testament:

   It seems like the only thing a player can do with this Move is sit back and be a dick by giving -1 to rolls and applying Conditions. Plus, as the character is dead, they are free from any kind of consequence or fall out. I don’t like this at all, and don’t see anyone picking it as you lose all your agency.

   Shed Your Skin:

   I don’t like this Move. When someone takes it, the game just ends. Either the Shadow kills everyone with the overpowered bonuses the Strings get, or the Shadow gets killed. If the Skin is about the struggle of keeping a secret identity hidden from everyone, a Move that totally chucks that under the bus with no consequences seems very,, very strange.

   Predatory:

   I don’t understand this. When the Shadow uses this move and gets a 10 up, do they get the effects of both the “normal” lash out physically Move and this Move? Or does the 10 up effect from this Move replace the normal lash out physically effects? This needs clarification. Plus, dealing +2 harm for a single String is too powerful.

   Devouring:

   If the Move doesn’t mean that the Shadow eats their victim, then the name needs to change. Maybe to “Without a Trace”. Also, tracking who gave you what Condition is too much bookkeeping. Just change it to “remove a  Condition”. Lastly, allowing the Shadow to never have any evidence come up is what we mean when we say the Skin is too competent.

   Honestly, this Skin seems like it’s designed for a played to come in for a one-shot, kick over everyone else’s sand castles, and then just leave (or get killed).The Skin has no reason to interact with other characters except to kill them. That does not sound fun, nor does it “play well with others”.  I’m sorry to be so harsh, but I really don’t like this.

8. Preternatural competence was meant to be the Shadow’s power source, like a vampire’s uncanny grace, or a werewolf’s shapeshifting. Likewise, the all-or-nothing quality of the Skin was also intentional– the Shadow either triumphs completely or dies trying, and more likely the latter. I can understand not liking a Skin that is basically (self-)destructive, I can understand not liking characters who are playing to ‘lose’ in some sense, but I do think there’s a place for that love-to-hate character at the table. Whether that’s ever going to be this Skin or not is another matter. Still trying.

   I still kind of liked the idea of connecting the nighttime vigilante with the underworld kingpin (felt very Angel), but there’s probably no way it wouldn’t be overpowered. I’ll be dropping the Shadow’s instant-kill moves at this point to focus on manipulation via Strings. (Dropped: Predatory, Shed Your Skin, present version of sex move. Might keep Devouring.)

   Conspiracy of Lies might need more nerfing (maybe require actual expenditure of Strings), but I still think the underlying concept is interesting, ie. disturbing.

   What if The Outsider also gave its +1 to lash out physically? And what if I replaced ‘reject’ with ‘show fear and disgust at’? The point is to provoke a hostile response, while still, on some level, rewarding their curiosity. Taking this move is saying something about the fiction, that your Darkest Self (your true nature in the Shadow’s case) is terrible enough to inspire that level of hostility.

   The idea with Surrogate is that you (the one with the move) roll the dice, with your own stats.

   I feel like there could be an actual magic mirror with Darkest Mirror, or some kind of telepathy, but that it could also just be a matter of plain simple insight into the other person’s character. Part of me likes the vague nature of the Shadow, the ability to choose your villain, so long as they are the villain.

   I think Sever is probably a matter of persuasion, convincing the other character of their isolation from others, or the weakness of their seeming strength, but like spending Strings normally, there’s some leeway for the player to add their own flavour. It could be intimidation or charm, or lies, or a mesmerising voice or spell.

   If You Kill Him… I just really like the idea that the Shadow’s corruption could be that complete, to the point of taking over another character completely.

   Last Testament’s all about the backup plan, the last wrench in the works. The Shadow’s going to have a lot of Strings. Be a shame for them to go to waste if they die. Maybe it could allow for more agency– I just appeals to me, the idea of a character who is not undead but actually dead, but still something of a threat. The way Darkest Mirror still allows you to collect Strings after death is part of this– you were so prepared for your own death that you practically saw the future.

   If Shed Your Skin doesn’t work as it is, I still like that it heralds the end. Maybe it should just be a way to retire the character with a bang.

   Maybe this whole idea just doesn’t work for Monsterhearts. Not quite ready to concede the point just yet, but we’ll see.

9. See, I don’t really feel other Skins even have a power source. They have an identity, they have elements that make them different from other Skins, they might even be better at doing specific things. But those abilities come at steep prices. Moves in Monsterhearts are like The Monkey’s Paw; they almost never work exactly as their owner wants them to.

   The all-or-nothing quality you mention could be an interesting element to explore, but as it stands now, The Shadow can take everyone and everything else down with them. Being able to affect things after their death, forcing people who see their true nature to remain silent, allowing them to kill with no fear of ever being caught, taking another player’s character when they die, all of these don’t really allow the Shadow to “lose”. The Shadow either “wins”, or fucks up everyone else’s shit in a death tempertantrum on their way down. I really don’t see how this is fun.

   I would sugest going back and finding what element of teenage life you want to highlight with this Skin. The best Skins aren’t monsters just to be monsters. The “monster” is really just a metaphor for some kind of broken or dysfunctional behavior.

   I don’t like how the Sex Move has nothing to do with sex. I feel this is kind of cheating, as sex and sexuality are big part of Monsterhearts. Only two other Skins that I know of, The Fae and The Vampire, have Sex Moves that don’t actually require having sex. However both are still about sex in some way. The Vampire has to deny someone sexually (meaning sex was a possible outcome in the given situation) ane The Fae has to lie naked with someone. The Shadow’s Sex Move is about killing someone.

   There is one other Move that allows a player to outright kill someone; The Chosen’s Final Showdown. You’ll note that it only works on NPCs, and that the target can inflict harm on their way out. The Chosen also has to spend 4 Strings to do this, and has almost no special way of getting Strings other than the Basic Moves. That means they’ll have to make rolls and risk Hard Moves to get those Strings.

   The Shadow does a lot with Strings, but they also have a lot of ways to get Strings without making rolls. This is a contributing factor to why I say the Skin feels like a power combo.

10. Well, this could sound like a complete cop-out, but the Shadow’s power does have a kind of price: the price of being hated, being alone, a self-inflicted price. That is what I’m trying, and failing, to get at with the Shadow’s Darkest Self, that there’s something fairly childish about assuming that you, and only you, are unique and brilliant, in some way superior to everyone else, surrounded by people not of your own quality. But  if you look down on everybody else, if you hate everybody, if you believe you are a slighted king or a god or whatever, then you’re alone. Lonely at the top.

    I think that kind of narcissism, that persecution complex and mixed need for recognition, is pretty common among teens. With the Shadow’s fixation on death, I feel like there’s a comment to be made on suicide, but I’ve held back on stating that outright. Still, the vindictive “You’ll all be sorry when I’m gone” quality of the Shadow’s moves were meant to invoke that temper-tantrum you’re talking about. It might not be fun for you– I do think it could be fun without being disruptive, depending on the players involved. I think in a game that is primarily about teen drama, a character that really does nothing but make trouble (and then probably dies) could add something to the game.

    What I want Conspiracy of Silence to do, and it hasn’t gotten there yet, is cloak the Shadow’s actions for a little while, but as the game goes on, more and more people will find out their true nature, at which point the move doesn’t work on them. It isn’t meant to be infallible. Maybe there needs to be a mechanic for PCs to clue each other in?

    I’ll drop the Shadow’s moves that kill PCs outright (not done editing yet), but I still kind of like the idea of the Skin being able to kill (minor) NPCs very easily on the quiet. Maybe if there was a roll involved? It wasn’t really ever meant to work on Menace/Threat NPCs, but I’m not sure that language belongs in a Skin.

    Killing people who have sex or want to have sex has a long history in the horror genre. Maybe it doesn’t work for this Skin, with the psycho killer/assassin aspect taken out. Originally the text was ‘alone and intimate’, but I wasn’t sure that really applied to the Shadow. Maybe ‘alone with someone who trusts you’ would be better. Still haven’t decided what the move should be.

    Darkest Mirror could be narrowed down, maybe only working on a hit or miss. I do like that it triggers when someone else gazes into the abyss. Other Skins have ways of picking up Strings without rolls (the Queen, the Vampire, the Witch’s sympathetic tokens), and the Shadow runs on Strings alone.

    The power combo thing– I suspect you don’t really like that the mechanics are laid so bare, that they feel kind of push-button and exploitative of the system itself. I don’t know, though. That approaches the mindset that I feel is desirable for the Skin. A kind of bloodless economy of cruelty and harsh practicality.

11. I’m not trying to stomp all over your creative endeavor and cause you to not go forward. There are interesting things you’ve said your reaching for with this Skin, but it looks like you are trying for way too many here. I’d narrow it down to just one element.

    Being lonely at the top because you think you’re better than everyone around you. – Honestly, I think this is what The Queen does. You can go this route, but it might be hard to find some new fictional/mechanical design space.

    Fixation on death, and a comment on suicide. – I don’t see this at all in the current incarnation of The Shadow. If you go for this angle (and I don’t see why not), then you really need to explore it.

    A vindictive “you’ll be sorry when I’m gone” mentality. – While interesting, the character would only ever be short lived. I’m thinking of one of those unfortunate teens who goes on a killing spree in their high school, then kills themselves. From my perspective, this type of character would have no “life” in a game of Monsterhearts.

    The Shadow is trying to do too much, and is suffering for it. As I mentioned above, choose one aspect of teenage life and really explore that.

    Moves:

    Conspiracy of Silence is far too powerful. “No one who you have Strings on will suspect you… unless they were actually there.” OK. I guess. But then you give the Shadow a String on EVERYONE AUTOMATICALLY through their Backstory. All the Shadow has to do is get someone alone, and they can do whatever they want to the victim. The victim can’t tell anyone about what happened, and no one whom the Shadow has a String on will even suspect the Shadow did anything. And because no one suspects anything, no one ever has a fictional reason to not trust the Shadow and go off alone with them. Do you see how powerful this is?

    You’ve given the move a clause that says “you can’t use this Move if you’re exposed to the wider public”, but how would that ever happen? Through the Shadow’s Darkest Self? In Darkest Self, The Shadow just goes on a rampage killing all witnesses, allowing them to reset the Move.

    This Move needs to not be automatic. Something like this:

    Conspiracy of Silence:

    When you deal physical or emotional harm to an NPC, and there is no one else around to witness the event, roll with cold. On a 10 up, your victim remains silent about the assault, and no one suspects you.On a 7-9 choose one or the other.

    Darkest Mirror:

    Yes, other Skins have ways of getting Strings without rolling. The Queen gains a String when someone betrays them. The Vampire gains a String when someone invites them into their house. The Werewolf gains a String when they harm someone. The Witch counts items of personal significance as Strings.

    But so you see how those are all really messy , have a cost, and create drama? Someone has to betray The Queen. That means shit is about to go down and the Queen’s plans are all fucked up. Conflict. The Vampire can not enter someone’s house unless they are invited in. Meaning that they have to convince people to invite them in if they want to get inside or to get that String. The Werewolf has to hurt people to get a String. So… should you hit that person you actually like just to get a String on them? Drama. The Witch needs an item of personal significance, meaning the character has to care about that item. You can bet your ass they’re going to notice if it’s missing, and if someone sees the Witch with it, shit is going to go down.

    Darkest Mirror? Give me a String when you Gaze Into the Abyss. That has no cost for the Shadow, does not require any kind of interaction with another character, has no chance of biting them in the ass, and punishes other players for making a Basic Move. Absolutely not. You need to rethink this Move.

    I have no problem with the mechanics being laid bare. But what I do have a problem with is Moves, like Darkest Mirror, that allow the Shadow to be better with no cost, drawback, interaction, or risk of a Hard Move.

    Have you looked at other fan made Skins? Topher Gerkey has some really good ones.

12. I’m not overly discouraged. I came into this knowing it was going to be a hard sell, and knowing that it was far from done. And I’ve seen and admired Topher Gerkey’s work, and yours, for that matter. I love that things like the Gargoyle and Proxy exist now.

    —

    I think those three things you mention are more connected than they immediately appear, with the core being something along the lines of the archetypal loner. Seemingly cool and very together, but ultimately destructive, a bad influence. J.D from Heathers, for example, or Angelus on Buffy. That self-centred nihilism to which teenagers are so often drawn.

    If the Queen is ‘lonely in a crowd’, the Shadow is about standing entirely apart. People are pulled into their circle, then cast out and discarded.

    With that being said, I don’t know if that’s enough to sustain a whole Skin, though, which is why there was initially that aspect that is the opposite, hiding contempt and misanthropy behind a pleasant facade: new girl Marybeth Hutchinson from The Faculty, the Mayor of Sunnydale, Dexter Morgan, Laura Palmer’s murderer on Twin Peaks or the killers from Scream. That anonymity, that facelessness, which is kind of at odds with the previous examples.

    There are at least two Skins to be made out of what was originally the Shadow, I’m sure of it. I’m just not sure what to put where.

    The divisions, as I see them: The bad influence, the archetypal loner, fixated on death, their own and others’. The secret mastermind, a two-faced charmer with a hidden agenda, possibly a corrupt authority figure. And a victim, deserving or not, who lingers after death. Any one of which could be a Skin on its own.

    Sort of riffing on the Ghost with that last one, but more about others’ memories than their own. An un-character, ex-character. A character who makes themselves felt by their absence.

    —

    The basic idea for Conspiracy of Silence (which admittedly didn’t come across in the move as written) was that the more people the Shadow hurts, the more people there are who know them for what they are, who can ultimately band together. Assuming there are survivors, which, in spite of the ease with which the Shadow kills(killed), there really should be. I probably should have put in a clause about incontrovertible physical evidence nixing the move as well.  What the move is really meant for is keeping a few people isolated– a metaphor for abuse. It doesn’t work as is, but somehow I don’t like that the Shadow rolls for it. It feels like something that should come apart from the outside, with some way the other PCs can deliberately weaken the Shadow’s power.

    I know you really don’t like that Darkest Mirror doesn’t seem to have any fictional cost, but the metanarrative pain of knowing that a basic move is now tainted by the Shadow… I really do like that, and feel like it suits the Skin thematically. I’m probably one of the very few who likes that kind of thing, though, which would be a reason enough to leave it out, fair to say.

13. Unfortunately, series antagonists are almost always NPCs. If you were running a season of “Buffy”, the guy playing the mayor would sit out a lot of adventures – the gang barely knows him, so he can’t do social games. He’s not ALL The evil, so he won’t get involved in monster-of-the-week stories.

    In a game about loners, you need a reason to keep drawing yourself in. That’s what separates skins about loneliness (The ghost, the Sasquatch) from ones that are almost entirely non-participative.

    Meta-narrative isn’t gameplay. If your skin isn’t balanced for GAMEPLAY, it ain’t balanced.

14. Darkest Mirror:  When someone you have a string on gazes into the abyss, roll with dark.  On a hit, you share their vision and they gain the condition watched.  On a 10+, they have no idea what’s up.  On a miss, you gain the condition drained in addition to whatever hard move the MC makes.

15. dave ring’s suggested Move is similar to what I was thinking. As I said before, just giving the Shadow a String for free with no risk is way too powerful. This brings it back down to an acceptable level. The Shadow has to know the person in question (have a String on them) and has to roll, risking a GM Move. I wouldn’t have the move give out a Condition on a 7 up though, that still seems a bit powerful for my tastes, and seems to be reserved for 10 up results (unless there’s some other cost or drawback). I would do something like this:

    Darkest Mirror:

    When someone you have a String on gazes into the abyss, roll with dark. On a hit, you share their visions and gain any effects they do (Conditions, Strings, forward, etc.). On a 10 up, they have no idea what’s up.

    This is just personal taste, but I don’t think the Move needs a 6- clause.

    I am intrigued with the idea of a “Global Move” that affects the structure of the game for everyone involved, Matt Gnof. But as written right now, Darkest Mirror makes gazing into the Abyss so toxic and detrimental, that it doesn’t change the game. It breaks it. In my experience, gaze into the Abyss is a Move that takes the players the longest to understand, and because of that, it gets used the least often. Giving the Shadow a String on someone any time they use the Move without risk or drawback de-incentives the Move so much, that no one will ever use it.

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