Chang log:

24 thoughts on “Chang log:”

1. Getting better and better!

2. Maybe someone mentioned this already, but none of the NPC villains have a “Damage” that is indicated in the section that describes the villain stat blocks.

   I can’t really tell how much damage they do when a move is required.

   Am I just a n00b?

3. How much damage they do is always going to be up to you and what’s happening in the game. You’ve got 3 different types of Conditions you can Impose on the player characters to represent harm and damage – Minor, Moderate and Critical. Sometimes you might just narrate and not Impose any Condition at all and sometimes you’ll just one of them – it will depend on what’s happening the game, the powers your players have and what they’re doing in the fiction.

4. Ok, but the preceding text says there should be an entry: “Damage is an indicator of what type of damage an enemy usually does in most situations by means of imposing Conditions and, when they do, what kinds of Conditions they might impose.” None of the villains have this guideline…

   And, I think such a guideline would make it less arbitrary when I need to make a soft or hard move.

5. Yeah, it was originally there, I took it out because it didn’t really add much in my mind – “mobs” probably only do Minor Conditions that might stack up and being Moderate ones if the heroes ignore them. “heavy hitters” probably Impose Minor and Moderate and maybe a Critical when lucky. That kind of thing. I can put it back in if you want more guidelines but I just thought it might make EICs care more about the guidelines rather than what is going on in the game.

6. Perhaps it’s my personal taste or just that I’m not experienced in this system, but I like the guidelines about when to apply certain conditions. For example, when you say they impose a Critical “when lucky,” I’m not sure what you mean by that.

   Maybe this should be detailed in the Defy Danger move?

7. That’s why I took it out. Damage is just an EIC move. You make it when a) a soft move is ignored or unresolved or b) when a 6- is rolled by the players (on any roll at all). You only deal damage if it makes sense for it to happen (i.e. they’re fighting a villain, an action they try to perform leads to them taking damage, whatever). More than that, you deal damage whenever you have to. A building falls on the heroes? They probably take damage. How much? You tell me. Does the character have a healing factor? How far into the session is it? Is that the most interesting thing that could happen at that time for you? Is that what would happen in a comic book?

   You see why there doesn’t really need to be any indication of how much an enemy can do or not? Putting limitations on enemies feels like disingenuous to the game and the fiction you’re trying to create. Do it when it makes sense, and impose the severity that makes sense, you don’t need guidelines to say that a group whiny students aren’t probably going to Impose a Condition (that represents damage) on them unless they get lucky. 

8. Defy Danger doesn’t have to always apply conditions though.

   I do agree Conditions need examples, but I wouldn’t tie them directly to move. No need to limit moves.

9. Tommy Rayburn, that’s true about Defy Danger, but I’m suggesting some discussion about when or how to apply Conditions when a PC fails their Defy Danger roll, or maybe when they get a 7-9?

10. I think that is a standard hard move …. which can be said about any move. On ANY move, if you fail a hard move can be made. IT is up to you as a EiC/MC/DW to justify the kind of hard move via fictions.

    The statement really needs to be again that conditions need to be set up with examples, so you as the EiC have a better understanding of the conditions and when to use them when applying them for a hard move.

11. Ok, that’s fair. But could a minor condition be applied as a soft move?

12. I know it sounds like it could be dodging the question, but it has to make sense in the fiction. It doesn’t even have to be as a result of a move.

    That said, soft moves are usually for setting up a move that may or may not lead to taking damage. Soft moves allows for a reaction, letting the heroes do something about what’s coming usually.

    A hard move is when you just tell them what happens. They don’t have a change to dodge or recover, etc. This happens, take a Minor Condition.

    The move could involve damage in the form of a Condition, or not. Compare these two sets of moves:

    Soft Move

    It is hard to make out what’s ahead but it sounds like the water is getting much faster. And, it looks like there’s something moving around in the water. What do you do?

    Hard Move

    The river drops out suddenly and you and the boat go tumbling into an open pit. Oh yeah, the pit is filled with alligators. Why wouldn’t it be? The pit looks to be at least 50 feet deep and is slick and smooth. The water is gradually filling up the pit and the alligators, sensing prey in the midst, are whipped into a frenzy. What do you do?

    —-

    Soft Move

    The lights flicker on and off and the ride starts up and shuts down over and over. It looks like there’s a problem with the power. You make out a vague shape in the distance. What do you do?

    Hard Move

    You suddenly get the feeling you should not have stepped out onto the platform. Bright lights flash on and blind you, loud music screams out and deafens you and then the whole thing starts spinning suddenly and nauseatingly fast. Take the Moderate Condition “nauseous.” You’ll take a -1 forward to any moves that involve keeping your balance. Things look like they’re only going to get worse and the machine speeds up even faster! What do you do?

13. http://mightyatom.blogspot.com/2011/05/apocalypse-world-guide-to-hard-moves.html

14. Thanks for the examples and the link. But neither of these address how to quantify a villain’s damage upon a hero. Could I get an example of that?

    While I know Worlds in Peril is extending the system to the comic book genre, in Dungeon World the monsters have a damage die, so you know what kind of damage to apply if the players fail to defend.

    As written I feel like I could have a Mob deal a Critical Condition if I feel the fiction warrants it.

15. Steve Kunec, that is why in almost everyone of my post above I said that WiP needed to give examples of damage, which all did address your issue saying that i agree that the issue (no examples of damage for either to player or by players) needed to be remedied. Which I am hoping Kyle Simons has taken down, a simple add in the finalized book.

    What we are addressing in the last two post, was your comment on if damage should be used as a soft move, and that is generally No ….. unless the fiction suffices.

    BTW, if you played ANY other *World game besides DW, there is no damage dice. Apocalypse World has standard damages for weapons, Monster Hearts has conditions.

16. Yeah, I mean there are examples in every section about damage and Conditions but I can add more. Like I said, if the fiction warrants it then of course do it. A mob should do a Critical Condition if the fiction warrants it. It’s going to change the tone of your game how handle it is what I’m saying, and will be different for each group and every EIC – that’s why I don’t want to say like “Mobs will only ever do Minor Conditions” because well, no, not really right?

    If you’re playing Watchmen or something gritty, then you’ll probably take a Condition from even just regular street thugs. If you’re playing the Justice League, you probably won’t take Conditions from an average joe.

    If the heroes are playing heroes that have steel skin or that have a healing factor then that some dude with a knife is no longer really much of a threat anymore is he, compared to playing a guy with a bow and arrow. 

    You see what I’m saying? It’s always going to be about following the fiction, knowing your players.

17. Kyle Simons, I see what you’re getting at… Just seems arbitrary to my sensibilities.

    My only other exposure to *World is DW, and I have very limited practice with it.

    Overall, I totally buy into the soft/hard moves stuff, but in DW, I know what kind of damage would be applied by monsters/opponents.

    I guess I’m used to a system telling me that X does Y damage.

    This may take a bit for me to get used to…

18. Yeah, in DW that’s fine though, right. Because a knife will be the same for any character. If it makes contact, it’s going to do the same amount of damage to anyone.

    In Worlds in Peril some characters are Colossus and Wolverine and some are Hawekeye. Trust me when I say that you want abstraction – the alternatives are charts and tables and codification of moves, abilities, weapons, and all kinds of stuff that draws people out of the fiction. 

    Is it something they can shrug off but needs to be address? Minor Condition. Is it something that’s going to be make it hard for them to do some things but not everything? Moderate. Is it some thing that’s going to affect them all the time and hinder their ability to be effective until it’s taken care of? Critical.

19. Yes, that makes a ton of sense.

    Just will take a slight mental adjustment on my part… 😉

20. And boy do I hate charts.

21. I can’t seem to download this draft. Anyone else having that problem? It says the link has been disabled.

22. Worked yesterday, not showing up today.

23. I’m getting an error too.

24. Weird, it got disabled somehow, I think my dropbox got wonky since it’s resyncing everything suddenly. I posted a new link. I’m going to putting up 1.2 soon though once I get examples finished up – hopefully I’ll get more moves feedback from Jonathan soon too that I can include.

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