In a traditional RPG, like say D&D or Shadowrun, if a PC is surrounded by enemies the GM rolls for every enemy to strike at the PC. In Apocalypse World, and all of it’s hacks, I’ve noticed that there isn’t really a decent way to emulate such a situation. Even if the PC succeeds at striking their primary opponent, they might still have two to five more people around them.
After a seize by force I’ve asked a player to act under fire to evade the attacks from other opponents. But making one roll doesn’t feel like it emphasizes the peril of the scenario, and making a roll for each opponent seems excessive to me.
As an MC how would you handle such a situation?
As a player how would you want an MC to handle the same situation?
As a MC I would expect the player caught in such a situation to do something else than just strike an opponent: will he do that to scare the others? Will he try to escape because they are too many?
What about the adversaries? Are they professionals (in which case they will certainly kill the poor PC) or a bunch of cowards?
If the PC keeps trying to play it as in a heroic game, despite advices, then he will probably die.
I’m with Vivien Feasson here. If the PC swings at just one NPC, ignoring the others, I wouldn’t even give them an Act Under Fire roll to avoid the retaliation. Unless the player narrates a way in which their PC is dealing with all of the NPCs at once, they’re going to be in trouble.
If someone’s outnumbered by more than a couple of people and surrounded, I’d generally just use the Gang rules (deals +harm, takes -harm, depending on size) to provide abstraction and cut down on rolls while still making things more dangerous and difficult to deal with.
Depends in who acts first.
If a player jumps them before they can open fire they size by force. They probably can’t engage more then two people like that though. The others get to open fire as they please and inflict harm as established. Therefore I would tell a player that and ask if they don’t want to get out of there instead.
If the other characters have the initiative I’d say
They all raise their weapon, ready to shot. What do you do? Nearly all things would be acting under fire there though. Maybe they can manipulate their leader. If they do anything that Would provoke the group but if it isn’t something that would get them out of trouble they take harm as established when the group opens fire.
It all depends on the situation though.
Dungeon World, at least, actually does have a rule for getting ganged up on: you roll once for damage incurred, but each enemy in the gang ups that damage by a notch. It’s not a huge increase in danger–but then, Dungeon World is a heroic fantasy game by default.
Gang rules, area effect tags are relevant too
This is also a situation where weapon tags are highly important. Things like area or reload are hugely important.
Craig Judd I think this creates weird situations where you suddenly do so much harm to a gang that you took out so many people with your giant pistol but it doesn’t really make sense fiction wise.
Or rather, that only works when you zoom out a lot. When you do a step by step narration it gets weird as the move suddenly demands the zoom out in that situation but you could miss that.
I probably should have specified the NPCs all have chains, knives, or clubs, not guns.
Craig Judd even if it’s only 3 other dudes, a small gang?
It’s still super hard to help here without knowing all parts of the fiction. A badass Battlebabe that can shot and jump like Trinity/Black Widow will do very differently then the meek Savyhead. So even the character doing it has an input on how it will most likely go.
I consider large groups to be a single entity and give them one set of Harm and one damage stat under the assumption that the majority would be ineffective and one or two might get a hit in.
Patrick Henry Downs Possibly, yeah, although I should point out my MC experience is limited and I was mostly dealing with a Gunlugger armed with automatic weapons so it made sense for him to be able to take out a bunch of guys at once. But I dunno, it gets fuzzy and depends on the situation. The book is pretty vague on what the body-count is for gangs, too: “A guy or two, a small gang…”
I would take a step back and ask how I got to this point. And if it’s fun to play it out in single person-to-person combat, or if speeding up the play might make more sense here. I would also treat a character disregarding that much being outnumbered as having written me a love letter that they delivered to me on a platter and make a very hard move against them.
If they succeed at seizing by force, use the gang rules and don’t forget to use the harm move. If they fail, go to town and capture them, take their stuff, etc etc.
But remember, this is a pretty cinematic game. On a 10+ your guys are going to get hurt, and the player will barely get scratched. That’s how the game is meant to work.
If you’re outnumbered and all you can think to do is swing your bat at a guy, you deserve the piles of damage I’m about to roll your way.
First you have to look at what tone the particular PbtA game is set to.
If you’re playing Worlds in Peril or even Monsterhearts, then yes, the lone PC can probably take on the whole group at once and even win with minor harm.
If you’re playing something gritty like Apocalypse World or Night Witches then the PC is giving you a golden opportunity for a really hard move.
And if you’re playing The Warren, get ready to hand over the unused playbooks. 🙂
MC moves:
inflict harm (as established)
exchange harm for harm (as established)
If they earn themselves a lot of harm, just apply or exchange it. If it is a soft move, give them a chance to skip out under it, if it’s a hard move let them reap the consequences of their actions.
If the narrative dictates they are going to get hurt you have the option just to hurt them.
I don’t think context should really matter, the characters are supposed to be “fuckin’ hot” and badass right? I treat everyone like they are the star of the show.
This is just a situation that happens a lot in my games, and is probably going to keep happening a lot in my games: one PC outnumbered by a small group of people. Not enough to be a gang, but enough to be a serious problem. I always tell them the consequences of missing their roll (you’re gonna get piled on and taken down pretty quick) and if a PC still chooses to fight then I follow up with acting under fire but if you’ve got one guy meleeing against 4 dudes and the PC keeps rolling 10+ then following the fiction means he’s a badass fighter (think Wesley Snipes from Demolition Man). Even on a 7-9 result, setbacks usually just make the fight more interesting.
Tim Franzke yeah, I generally don’t see Savvyheads doing anything but running away from fights.
I like Craig Judd and Luke Green suggestions. I’ll probably start treating a small group like a gang, though harm will still have to be doled out individually. It makes it a little tougher for the PC, but they can handle it.
Tim Jensen Nathan Black you can still only make a hard move on a failed roll though. I mean, you can’t announce future badness (they’re surrounding you, looks like they’re ready to take you down if you resist), ask “what do you do?” then follow up with a hard move after they say “I punch the leader in the face, as hard as I can” without a roll.
You can totally make a hard move anytime they set themselves up for one. You are doing the character a disservice by not giving it the ass kicking it is asking for.
Hard moves easily follow up soft moves that they ignore.
Patrick Henry Downs on seize by force, there’s an exchange of harm no matter what. Three guys deal their harm vs your PC dealing his. Don’t have the PC roll to avoid being hit.
Christopher Wargo armor + “take less harm” can reduce that to zero frequently, when somebody takes 0 harm I still have them make the harm move as well
Nathan Black what page of the rules says that? it sounds like you’re saying “ignore what the player wants their character to do and just fuck them over if they act stupid”
Patrick Henry Downs you can make a hard move when they give you a golden opportunity. Make use of that.
Tim Jensen Nathan Black I’m pretty clear that if the player makes a seize by force move against a gang, I have to let them roll and abide by the result. The decision to make a move never constitutes a golden opportunity, unless it would be impossible for the move to rescue the situation – in which case you need to tell them so. But I can’t see how “seize by force” could ever be an inappropriate move when you’re considering a fight. A stupid move, maybe.
Or to use a Dungeon World example. When the character engages the horde of Goblins with her Rapier then she can maybe deal with 2 or 3 of them at a time. Holding them back by pocking at them and occasionaly lounging for one.
That doesn’t stop the horde to surround her and get into her flank. Sure she can roll Hack&Slash and damage 1-3 of them without getting a counterattack when she get’s a 10+ BUT that doesn’t stop the other 5 goblins from stabbing her in the back and dealing their damage.
You make your move at specific targets. You can’t seize by force a whole gang without an area weapon. You can SBF maybe one or two and reduce the harm that is done by them. That doesn’t say anything about all the other guys though.
Tim Franzke you definitely can seize by force a whole gang, that’s why there are harm modifiers to cover exactly that situation. The bigger the gang, the more lethal that decision is likely to be for you.
You can deal harm as established if the character goes in to a fight out numbered and out gunned you can say, sure seize by force but it’s going to hurt. Don’t play gotcha, follow the fiction.
Always say what the rules demand. You don’t get to just inflict harm willy-nilly. I would do this if the gang, I dunno, had the character at gunpoint. That would be fair as an announcement of future badness “they have their guns pointed at you and you can tell if you move a muscle they will open fire”. Otherwise the rules are pretty clear how you handle it and the name of the move is Seize by Force.
Otherwise, you’re basically saying “sure, the rules say one guy can fight a gang and win, but I’m going to ignore that”. You’d be introducing a custom move “when you fight a gang on your own, they deal their harm before the fight even starts”.
How do you establish that this fight is harder than a normal fight? That the character is facing bad odds? I’m not saying fiat damage on them, I’m saying follow the fiction. If they charge into a hail of bullets, they don’t mystically escape harm because they chose to seize by force.
Page 119:
Trade harm for harm (as established).
“You make it to cover behind the fallen wall. At least one of Dremmer’s people went down, but you took a solid bullet yourself on the way, for 2-harm. You’re bleeding and having trouble breathing, what do you do?”
“In the scramble, he manages to nail you with his elbow, right in the armored corset, for 0-harm, and he manages to cut his hand wide open on your scalpel…”
I also get the feeling we agree on this and that I phrased it poorly in the outset.
Nathan Black we probably do agree; the internet is such a bad medium for discussion.
I would say, there’s all sorts of ways you can establish a fight as harder than usual, but the rules demand that you don’t do that without a fictional reason. So like, say this gang have set up a position in cover, watching over a narrow defile that you have to pass through to get to them. Then when you describe that, you’re announcing future badness, right? You probably say “if you move through that defile, you’re going to take a lot of fire” and maybe “you will have to act under fire to avoid harm” or “act under fire to even make it through, and you’ll take harm come what may”.
Similarly, you can make a custom move for a particular gang. Dremmer’s gang are bastards when they gang up on you, +1 harm if they have superior numbers.
But if it’s just a case of you vs a.n. gang, there’s already rules for that. You don’t need to make a move, because the move’s already written. Unless one of you has some advantage[*] not covered by the existing rules (like say, they already have their guns out and pointed at you, they have the element of surprise, etc), and you’re playing AW RAW, no hacking or whatever, you would be cheating if you make that move when your player has called to seize by force.
I think those examples you quoted assume you’ve already followed the rules to get to “you took a solid bullet on the way down for 2-harm” – I would imagine this is a character who either failed their Seize by Force/Act Under Fire to get to cover, or didn’t take the option to reduce harm, or whatever.
[*] And one way we might be talking at cross-purposes is if you think that that advantage is “they have you surrounded”. There isn’t any rule for that. Maybe it’s fair to apply some kind of move there, though I’m not sure whether any melee fight wouldn’t resemble this to some degree, which suggests to me the normal rules ought to be good enough.
I was already assuming the character had been put in a spot by surrounding them too. Hence the move to harder moves.
In that case, we do indeed agree. Damn you, internet!
Nathan Black yes, I would be leery of just jumping into a hard move without warning, but there are certainly soft moves that can set one up.
Tell them the consequences and ask, for example. Sure, you can skewer one thug with your sword, but her pal is going to shank you in the small of your back. What do you do?
In the end though, AW is not D&D or Shadowrun, both of which are good games. Viva la difference!
The bigger the danger the more rolls are triggered. It is as simple as that. Basic principle!
In a situation where the PC is surrounded by a gang he may have to make 2 AuF rolls for each SbF roll. When 3 people are hacking at you you can only realistically attack one.
The more rolls, the bigger chance of failing.
That is however not how it works. Especially not making two identical rolls for the same thing.
Different things in the fiction.
The PC rolled a 10+ on SbF
“As you hit the chopper with the lead pipe Nil shouts “behind you!” What do you do?
“I sing round and hit whoever is behind me?”
“Sorry, not enough time, your lead pipe is still in the process of cracking skull.”
“I fall to the side, adding my weight to the lead pipe as it connects, and dodging whatever comes from behind.”
“Roll AuF”
A 7-9
“You dodge the guy behind you’s axe, but fall against The Don just as his knee is coming up…”
“Can I hit him?”
“No, your lead pipe is still swinging on the follow through of that last hit. You can roll to the side but then you’ll end up prone or you can take the force of the blow of his knee.”
“I roll.”
Roll AuF
Its a miss.
“As his knee hits your chest you feel the spikes of his steel knee caps penetrating your leathers. Take 2-Harm minus armor.”
You could also run in it like the kung fu movie. Each new attack is a new threat and the cinema slows down as the PC responds.
“Two dudes with chainsaws?”
“Spinkick it out of their hands!”
“while you do that, a lady with a katana comes at you!”
“grab the chainsaw and parry”
“while that happens three more of her friends come out with nunchuks!”
“backward flip to get out of range!”
either they play smart or the law of random distribution will end up letting you get them seriously hurt.
you can even terrain and tactics be a thing (despite not using miniatures) by the pcs (and the other characters) taking advantage of the scenary
depends quite a bit on the style of game i guess
Tell them the consequences
So… you’ve been put in a spot, looks like a small group, a gang or fire-team of 2-4 local militia… maybe you are badass enough to be the person in charge of this situation… maybe:- but, if you are not prepared to duck and cover before the hail of fire, or intend to launch your reactionary move as a seize by force the nearest cover and safe retreat… this isn’t likely to end well for you, as you will quite certainly be acting under fire against a small organized gang.
Alternatively; you could have conceivably caught them in a one on six ambush in the center of an open market forum… your favor… by simply playing them into a false sense or security, a tactical and strategic feint by letting them think you are cowed by their obvious superiority, or otherwise under their might authorized control, and then use their numbers against them… a body shield shake’n’bake brouhaha… float like a dragonfly, sting like a dumptruck.
however…
This is the kind of thing that someone who fights like a gang of one does instinctively… so, if you are not a demon dog that grinds it’s teeth on a piece of the rock for sport before breakfast on the beach fourteen days before Sunday… you might just want to consider a ten-to-twenty-toe free-for-all melee an act under fire against a gang, spray-and-pray your shots like a squid, because when your wild wrestling skirmisher moves go ineffectually wild, it’ll only take one to hold your attention while the other knocks some sense in you, and then they criss-cross to spank your flanks till you are fully off your toes, down and ten.
One is none, two is one… with knife or a gun, cover and run… twenty on ten, is fifteen still walking in the end… check them tactical mathematics.
Personally; I don’t like a thing to need more than three rolls to resolve, two is conceivable, one is preferential…
One of the things I like about PtbA Games, is a Move is a thing of indeterminate time-spans and targets, where you can let a roll ride for fictional days… or until something significantly changes the affectations of the effected situation…
Go Aggro on one or twenty-one, on that many people for that many minutes, the move doesn’t care if it is a gang of three amigos, or a scattering of thirty strangers.
Seize by Force a deadly object in someone’s hand, a bus full of tourists, an entire bunker of raiders, the next life-or-death decision of someone in the local diner, a doorway in a strategic position during a riot, an entire road in tactical retreat, the fallback position twenty days walk away… the move really doesn’t care.
To paraphrase Dirty Harry: Go ahead, make your move…