Hoping for some feedback on custom moves
I’ve read a lot of PBA stuff and played a decent amount, but I’ve never tried to write custom moves before. I was hoping for some feedback.
The first relates to one of the Corps in our game, a company that breeds and manufactures animals. I wanted a move to introduce the uncertainty and potential for mishap anytime your mission brings you into contact with an animal.
When an animal is getting in your way, roll +Cool
On a 10+, you deal with it without complication
On a 7-9 choose 1:
• There’s a commotion (advance the Legwork/Mission clock)
• You’re forced to take lethal action
• An ally must assist you
• It harries you, take -1 ongoing until you’re rid of it
I like the choices I’ve given here, but I’m not sure if this move is too generic or dry for players to be excited to roll it. Given there’s something a little alien about animals in any cyberpunk setting I wonder if there’s something I can do to ratchet up that feeling of uncertainty? Also I wonder if in practice the ‘It harries you’ choice will be the most commonly taken by a fair way
The second relates to another Corp, a private security firm. I wanted to give them a custom move to make them inherently more threatening than most combatants the players might encounter. I think they’re better trained and more coordinated, which is why a Move feels more appropriate than having them do more harm to characters.
When Argus Security attempt to detain, restrain or assault you, roll +Meat
On a 10+, they fail to gain the upper hand
On a 7-9, choose one:
• They relay info about you up the chain (advance the Legwork/Mission clock)
• They gain info about you for their database (advance the Argus Corporate clock)
• They bring their force to bear on you (take harm as established by the fiction)
• You’re cornered, pinned down or trapped
I think I’ve achieved my goal of making Argus Security more threatening, and I like the fact that the players get to choose an interesting variety of ways for them to be screwed. My only reservation is that this maybe looks a bit too similar to the Mix It Up basic move?
One thing that might help is reframing the moves so that they are active rather than reactive. Moves tend to be better when they reflect character action and give forward-moving choices. (e.g. “when you avoid an inconvenient animal” or “when you evade Argus Security”.) Also, make sure that your outcomes lead into the fiction. So, for example, “On a 10+, they fail to gain the upper hand” tells me something that doesn’t happen. Instead, tell me what does happen. It makes the characters more active and helps the MC/players/table continue the conversation.
More specifically related to these moves, the main problem I see with the first is that I don’t know what kind of situation this is or how animals are “getting in your way”. Are you thinking of random street dogs? Augmented guard animals? Pigeons? You can guide the fiction better in the move trigger and give more setting specific detail in the complication options. Because you are writing these as custom moves for very specific situations, you can make the move triggers and outcomes very specific as well.
For the second, how does this relate to mix it up? Do you roll this instead of? as well as? How does it trigger? If I see an ArgSec squad and mix it up to neutralise them, when does this move come up? You might consider making the trigger “when you mix it up with ArgSec” or maybe even better “when you attempt to avoid an ArgSec Hunter-Killer Squad”.
Id really think if you want to make Argus security difficult…you go with if they roll 10+ they pick 1, if they roll 7-9. They pick two. So even if they succeed they still have to deal with the how dangerous and skilled Argus is. It depends on how bad you want to make them.
I agree with Hamish on the guard animals, but that may be because I don’t understand how they work together with the setting you’ve developed possibly.
Thanks for the replies guys.
Hamish your point about making triggers active is good. I think the animal move shouldn’t be too hard to fix. Originally it was something like “when you encounter an animal” but this was even broader and pretty difficult to use effectively in play. I don’t think animals will be very common in our setting unless they’re being encountered in relation to the Animal Corp, but just to make it nice and clear do you think maybe something like “when you try to avoid an inconvenient animal created by (Animal Corp)?” In my mind this move would trigger in situations where you maybe had to get past a guard dog, but also when making your way through a warehouse full of genetically modified cows or through a Corporate Office that contains a pet dog. The characters probably don’t encounter animals very often, so what I’m really trying to get across is the fact that they don’t have much context for how animals will react. Originally I used “getting in your way” because I was trying to communicate that it might trigger when your path was physically blocked, but also say when you were say trying to stealthily rifle through someone’s desk while a curious parakeet looked on.
The idea with the Argus move is that it would trigger when Argus are taking active action against the character. It would trigger when Argus guards burst into the room or when they pursued you through a building. It could also relate to something like a drone strike. It’s kind of a precursor to any even handed fight to make their arrival or initial action more threatening. Once this move was resolved you’d then move on to something like mix it up if the character fought back or act under pressure if they had some other plan, essentially treating Argus guards like any other armed and trained threat. The move would not trigger if a bunch of Argus guards were guarding a door and a character charged into the room and mixed it up. “When Argus deploys against you” might make this clearer, but this doesn’t make the move any less reactive.
Sorry for the wall of text guys.
I really like this idea: “The characters probably don’t encounter animals very often, so what I’m really trying to get across is the fact that they don’t have much context for how animals will react.”
In all the examples you give, the actor seems to be trying to avoid the notice of the animal. How about combining that with the paragraph above:
When you try to avoid the notice or provoking a reaction from an unfamiliar animal, roll+Cool
On a 10+, you avoid notice or reaction
On a 7-9 choose 1:
• The animal reacts loudly
• The animal charges at you
• The animal notices, and starts following you, silently for now
My thoughts here are a) to make the trigger more specific so its clearer what is happening in the fiction and in the move, b) re-write the complications so that they focus on what the animal does and allow you to use the magic PbtA words: “what do you do?”.
I’m not entirely happy with those complications because the first two feel a bit too much like failures, and a 7-9 is usually a success, but with a complication.
The problem with all those Argus moves is that those situations are all times when you want to use the magic words “what do you do” or when you want to make an MC move.
It would trigger when Argus guards burst into the room or when they pursued you through a building.
“Argus guards burst in bristling with weapons, what do you do?”(probably leads to mix it up or act under pressure to escape, but maybe also play hardball or fast talk. Whatever it leads to, you have made a move (guards burst in) that leads to conversation and player options. Saying “the guards burst in, now make a roll” removes those options and places unproductive restrictions on the conversation.
It could also relate to something like a drone strike.
MC hard move. “Argus just blew up your house, dude. What do you do?” or “the building you’re in explodes in fire, take 3 harm. You’re armour is on fire, what do you do?”
It’s kind of a precursor to any even handed fight to make their arrival or initial action more threatening.
You can (and should!) them threatening by describing them as threatening in the first instance. Now, you can still have a move that gives that some mechanical teeth.
How about:
When you mix it up with a prepared and alert Argus force, make the mix it up move as usual, but add the following option:
• They gain info about you for their database (advance the Argus Corporate clock)
On a 7-9, pick 3 instead of 2.
Mix it up is pretty unforgiving on a 7-9 already, so this adds to the threat, but because its a modification of an existing move, you don’t have to worry about how it interacts with that move.
I worked through those two examples in a bit of detail to try to show some of the thinking I do behind the scenes when I work on PbtA moves, in particular keeping a focus on how they can work to promote player action and engagement in the conversation.
I like the ideas behind both of the moves you created: they absolutely evoke certain things about the setting that I think would add to your game.
Thanks for your patience with me and all the thought you’ve put into this stuff Hamish, I appreciate it.
I do like the Argus move you came up with a lot, and will probably end up using it. I did wonder whether having a move for a threat turning up was perhaps not the best fit, and modifying Mix It Up is cleaner and interacts with the game better.
I think your wording for the animal trigger is better than either of mine.
I might think on the consequences and maybe change them to suit mine and my group’s style a bit more. I like the idea that some of the options have hard mechanical consequences but otherwise resolve the issue (as with some of my original consequences) while others affect the game going forward. I’m not enamoured with “the animal charges at you” because I don’t think every animal should be a potential combat threat. Its possible than instead of scrapping this option there’s a rewording that fixes it.
I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the “you’re forced to take lethal action” consequence I put in my original idea. It does bypass the all important “what do you do” a little, which is why I imagine you scrapped it when you wrote your version. I liked it because I liked the idea that the move says to the player “you can make this problem go away right now if you’re willing”, but maybe I’m sacrificing a bit of the spirit of the PBtA engine by including it.
Yup, my intention was to offer ideas and insight into my thinking on how PbtA runs most smoothly, not to tell you how to run your game. 🙂
I said “the animal charges at you” rather than “the animal attacks you”, because I wanted the sense of aggression, but unknown motivation. Our cat charges at us all the time, but seldom actually attacks (seriously).
I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the “you’re forced to take lethal action” consequence I put in my original idea. It does bypass the all important “what do you do” a little, which is why I imagine you scrapped it when you wrote your version. I liked it because I liked the idea that the move says to the player “you can make this problem go away right now if you’re willing”, but maybe I’m sacrificing a bit of the spirit of the PBtA engine by including it.
That is why I removed it, yes. I wanted to leave a wider scope of action rather than direct player attention towards a violent option. I like your reasoning behind why would would leave it in. I think it says something about the brutality of the setting to put that violent permanent option front and center. Personally, I would reword it to remove the justification for violence implicit in “forced to”; something like “you instinctively remove the problem with violence”, suggests that these are violent people and leaves the justification for violence in the hands of the character/player. “Forced to” implies a lack of other options, when there clearly are (three!) other options.
BTW, no patience required! This is an interesting conversation which I may well reference and/or discuss on a future Twitch/Youtube video. I find thinking in detail about moves to be a really productive way of thinking about the game and the system.
Hamish I thought on it and decided to take your animal move but tweak some of the wording ever so slightly and ended up with this:
When you try to avoid the notice or provoking a reaction from an unfamiliar animal, roll+Cool
On a 10+, you avoid notice or reaction
On a 7-9 choose 1:
• The animal reacts loudly (advance the mission clock)
• The animal aggressively invades your personal space
• The animal starts following you, silently for now
I wanted to add the mission clock aspect to the loud reaction because I’m a fan of the players choosing to advance the mission clock in general, and because its the option with the least amount of obvious fictional follow through.
I’m running this game as part of an actual play podcast so if/when either of these custom moves are used in play I’ll stick the episode up in this thread with the relevant timestamps. No worries if you’re not interested (I highly doubt you listen to every actual play Sprawl podcast) but it might be a good follow up from the discussion.
I generally try to listen to as many as possible, so please do share the link!