We just began playing MotW and we found out that the movement Smite from Divine makes useless the investigation for weakness. If your weapon always is considered to be the weakness, why do you need to investigate?? How are you fixing this bug in the game?
We just began playing MotW and we found out that the movement Smite from Divine makes useless the investigation for…
We just began playing MotW and we found out that the movement Smite from Divine makes useless the investigation for…
My understanding is only the Divine’s damage would apply to “really killing” the monster with the Smite move.
I don’t think this is a bug. There won’t be a Divine in every game, and even then, not every Divine will take the Smite move.
But even if there is a Divine with the Smite move involved in the game, if the team doesn’t investigate what a monster’s weakness is, none of the other team members will be able to help.
That’s right, it’s not a bug.
Finding a monster’s weakness is not the only reason to investigate, nor does a Divine being able to skip looking for a particular weakness mean nothing else matters.
Chris Stone-Bush I don’t think so: the entire group can hurt the monster and the Divine be the one that will kill the monster for good just hitting the final blow. I really think it will kill the fun.
They also have to hit the damn thing. There are lots of monsters that a Divine can’t naturally hit (flying, for example) that other players can. Smite only applies to their divine weapon (none of which have range) and physical hits by their bodies.
And there are weaknesses that sidestep Smite narratively. Not all weaknesses need to be “get hit by a certain material or else.” My current mystery has the monster soulbound to a minion. As long as they’re not both dead at the same time, the survivor will regenerate the other. Smite does nothing about that.
Borja Aguirre That is not how I would play it: only the Divine’s damage counts to kill!
Of course you can always exclude the playbook or just that move from your game or even rewrite it as “House rules” if you just can’t wrap your head around it.
We are thinking about rewriting the movement: The Divine only can do this movement if he already knows the weakness. For example a Monster needs to be hit using a rare wood from a tree in a hidden temple. Knowing this, the Divine can summon the very true nature of that wood. With this option the group needs to find out the weakness first as always, but they don’t need to actually have It.
eva celdran Welcome to your universe!
Mark Tygart i’m just trying to fit that movement in this Game and i’m asking the community for options. If the divine can kill anything, the others don’t need to find out the weakness, they prepare a trap and let the divine kick its ass. With this modification the team is really a team, not a chore who finds things that the divine can kill.
eva celdran I think it works as long as only the divine does “real damage” with smite but your game is your game. We all have a few house rules.
I was thinking on rewritting the Smite move too: Divine Smite let Divine character do harm any monster. “Oh, so this is a Ghost and cannot be damaged by fisical weapons? No problem here, the Divine CAN harm it… but not destroy it without using its weakness” or “So, this ancient God can just be damaged by unholy weapons. Maybe we can get some, but meanwhile we have the Divine to kick its ass”.
Why am I thinking on this? I like the “only harm made by the Divine character or monster’s weakness counts as true damage” aproach but I hate to have two different damage accounts (one for “true damage” and one for “temporal” damage). If the monster has eight damage boxes, Do “real” damage heal at the same rate as the “temporal” damage does? Or what happen when this monster fills out all the boxes but only half are “true”? Does it vanish?
If the Hunters do enough harm to a monster to fill in all its boxes, it dies. But unless the they were able to exploit the monster’s weakness, it’s not really dead and is going to come back some time later.
So you don’t need to worry about two damage tracks.
Chris Stone-Bush but that’s the question here: the Divine Smite atacks are ALWAYS the monster weakness while the other hunters have to wait until they find out which is the “real” monster weakness.
The Mongolian Death Worms, for example, has a Water weakness: if you use water against them they will die for good. But at an earlier stage in the game, during the first encounter with the worms, the divine use her smite move and kills them all. The hunters didn’t have to investigate the worm weakness because the divine did all the work and now we have 2 or 3 spare hours of game we will never play.
Some users, like Mark Tygart in the first answer, abogue for letting only the divine’s harm count as “true damage” in order to destroy the monster. I really like this aproach but, in this case, the Keeper must track damage separately, being it “true” or “temporal”. In that case, if only four of the eight monster’s life boxes are filled with “true” damage, Is the monster trully defeated or will it came again in the future? If all the boxes have to be filled with “true” damage, the keeper must track damage separately and just here I have the doubt: do “real” damage heal at the same rate? Will have the monster the “temporary” harm boxes healed next time it fight the hunters? And Will have the monster the “true” harm boxes healed next time it fight the hunters?
Borja Aguirre I would generally have the monster’s wounds healed of the “temp” damage at the very least by the next encounter and of all damage if this makes any sense. I have generally made the monster retreat if the Divine does any real damage. Having the Smite move force the monster to retreat has been the actual use of the move for my groups in play if they have not yet discovered the monster’s weakness.
Mark Tygart So your solution is making the Monster retreat. Smite becomes then a way to not fight the Monster until you have its weakness. I don’t see it… The team can prepare traps so the Monster cannot run away and the divine Kick its ass.
And that idea of the real damage VS temporal damage…If I know that I will never be able to make a difference I won’t even try, I just let the divine fight while I heal his wounds and protect him with magic
eva celdran That’s not my solution, my solution is only the Divine inflicts real damage; so far that is the way it has always played out. And why would the trap damage be “real”? You are being very rules focused literal for this type of gaming; you are the Supreme Court here!
This is some good discussion about Smite, and it’s impact on the game. But we might be able to reframe the discussion a bit.
Monster of the Week is not about monster combat. It is about the journey of the Hunters as they investigate and confront new monsters each Mystery.
As a game, the point is about the shared experience of the players, and how they bring the Hunters and their journey to life during the play sessions.
If a player chooses Smite as a Move (and remember, all playbooks can choose a move from another playbook, so it’s not just the Divine), that indicates to you that the player is either interested in always having the solution at hand OR is not interested in searching for the Monsters’ weaknesses through investigation.
So if a Hunter shows up with Smite, be grateful that the game delivers us Keepers such clear insight into the players’ motivations and interests! Use that player choice to help discover other aspects about the Hunters that your players wish to explore.
Couple quick ideas:
“Player A, the Divine and their holy weapon are the perfect solution to nearly every Monster. How does this make your character feel? What does your character bring to the table, since weaknesses are handled by the Divine? How can we give you fulfilling time in the spotlight, if the killing blow always goes to the Divine?”
“Player B, your Divine has been cleaning up the monstrous community. What was your first sign that you are now on the radar of powerful, as-of-yet unknown foes? Describe their most recent attempt to steal your holy weapon, and how you defeated it.”
Alternatively, throw them into scenes where they have to make tough choices to bring the holy weapon to bear. “Yeah, your blade will kill the demon; but right now it’s in an innocent. Are you willing to kill the innocent too, or will you do what it takes to save the innocent first?” As they make these decisions, fill the world with rewards and repercussions. Just make sure the decisions are fun and exciting for the Players, and you’re not simply punishing them for their choices.
Remember always that the Keeper and other players are not adversaries in MotW, the way that they often are in many other (non-PbtA) games.
Andrew Fish Interesting approach. If Smite is in game, weakness rules change. Monsters has no weakness when the divine enters the scene and they know it so the team will be attacked by everyone trying to erradicate the divine. The non-divine characters will find themselves stopping bigger and bigger evil things that only the divine can kill. By the way, about your quick ideas… they cannot steal his holy weapon because his body is also a holy weapon.
That’s a solution but I was trying not to do that… That’s why I asked the community. I want to find a way to make the smite movement work without taking away the investigation part where you find about what kind of mosnter is, the story behind and yes, the weakness too.
Maybe I didn’t explain myself because it looks like you didn’t understand my question.
You left me three options:
1. Keep Smite and forget weakness rules… Nope. I like the investigation part, finding the weakness means finding the story of the monster.
2. Change the movement… Nope. It seems that this options is anathema. “Welcome to your own universe” someone said.
3. Forget that Smite exists…
We will take away that movement. End of the problem.
Thanks for the discussion guys.
I think option two is not off the table yet. Why did the Divine Player take this move the first time? I would like the Divine could damage any monster but not necesarily destroy it. Maybe just let Smite be “armour piercing” or just able to damage otherwise invulnerable monsters (like a ghost, or a magically reinforced titanium golem). In order to destroy the monster of the week for good the hunters still need to know and use its weakness, Smite simply buy more time for them.
This is good enough for me.
First, to quote the move: “Smite: Your body and divine weapon always count as a weakness against the monsters you fight. Your unarmed attacks are 2-harm intimate hand messy.” Ok, the first thing that comes to my mind is that a monster with 2 armor is a huge problem for your group if they are relying on the Divine, right? Plus, how is a punch going to get through that suit of plate armor or thick skin, or hurt that really slimey thing? Sure it will work sometimes, but not other times.
Another situation that could be a problem – minions that are also hurt only by the weakness. How is the divine going to be in three places at once? Let the monster attack the lunch wagon, and the minions attack the school bus. While the divine is banging on the monster with 1 armor, doing 1 harm, taking forever, how will you stop the three minions attacking the school bus?
As someone above pointed out, this is “intimate hand” distance. Just give the Monster a spear. Right?
Another one – monster has a spear of Divine slaying. Tougher now, huh? Or throws a net over the divine, or glues his feet down. Yes I know the divine can teleport – so he throws and anti teleportation net on him. Um, I mean traps him in a anti-angel circle. Why doesn’t Castiel just kill all the bad guys and make it easy on Supernatural? Sure he usually could, but there is usually some narrative reason not to.
There is also the superman dilema – kidnap one of the teams loved ones, being held by minions. If that Divine comes near me, Auntie Mae gets it! (yes I know I am mixing comic book companies)
Monster with tentacles and reach – divine fails his act under pressure roll and the monster wraps him up tight. How does he hurt the squid monster now? Maybe he glows damage, or maybe he has to actually punch to hurt it. Which is more interesting? Talk it through with the Divine. I think glowing and doing damage would be cool, and I want to be a fan of the characters, but the Divine should be contributing in an interesting way to the fiction as well.
I love the idea of the monster possesing a child. Whatcha going to do, punch it to death?
Also love the idea of weaknesses that don’t really work as punching. What if the monsters weakness is love? Think Beast from Beauty and the . . . How do you punch your way through that?
Maybe the monster has a shield. Can’t punch him, right?
Monster is covered in quills – you punch him, you take 2 harm piercing. ouch! Better figure out his weekness – ants!
Don’t think mechanical like bad DnD, think narrative.
Marko Jankovic I think I might be mixing in some DungeonWorld combat ideas in the above (reach) but otherwise I think it works. I don’t think you need to change the move. MotW is not just about killing monsters, but if they want to do that, just give them more monsters to kill. Should be pretty easy to make a monster that can’t be trapped – one of your monster moves is to let the monster get away. So how are they trapping it and letting the divine beat on it while every sits around laughing? So, you get the monster to step on the bear trap, but he reaches down and bends the bear trap with his super strength (move – show how strong it is or something), or so – the creature turns to smoke and reforms behind the divine and stabs him in the back! So the creature fills the room with darkness and the divine can’t see to hit him!
Don’t the worms spit acid or something? PUt all the worms in one room. They will rip that group to shreds if they stand around while the Divine whails on one worm. How did the divine beat all those worms anyway? [edited] Sorry I kind of went off here.
Sorry – here is one more – maybe they can’t find the monster until they figure out its weakness. It keeps sending minions if they like fighting, but maybe the weakness makes it appear (dust of ibn gazi anyone?) or it is just very shy. That rabid bigfoot can be killed with silver (or by a punches from a divine) but where the heck is he? He keeps killing people, how do we stop him? FINDING him is his “weakness” right? In a way? Don’t have to be so literal.
Maybe the way to beat this monster is not to kill him. You want to undue his curse. That requires a ritual, or his teddy bear or something. You get all the investigation you want. Throw in a minion with a weakness so that the Divine gets to use the move he paid for and be useful, but the mission is figuring out how to undo the werewolf curse or whatever.
Marko Jankovic Thanks a lot! Really. Thanks
Someone else…? Sold to Marko Jankovic!!!
Thank you all folks for all this ideas, from just mechanical to fictional. A lot of stuff to work with.
Something to remember is that you don’t need to codify all of a monster’s strengths/resistances as weaknesses. Here’s an example monster power from one of my mysteries: Subdermal scales.Has tough scales beneath its skin. Takes no harm from any blunt-force hit.
That’s not a weakness a Divine would be able to circumvent with their normal kit. Holy punches just don’t work here, because this particular baddie is especially tough.
eva celdran I think that ruling that you need to know how to do the weakness is a good ruling for your table if the tracking down the weakness is an important piece of the game to them. If just plain investigation is what they’re looking for maybe the monster is hard to find or there are multiple things that could be the monster but they have to figure out which is the real threat.
I don’t believe the “welcome to your universe” was meant to suggest that you are wrong. A key rule in most games is that a GM’s ruling at the table is law. If you want smite to require knowing the weakness, it does. Welcome to how things work at your table. Another group might decide that the Divine always being able to put the hurt on the monster is the best thing for their group, and you would both be right at your table. That’s not a bug, that’s flexibility for different styles of play.
This is all super helpful to me as we are likely going to have a Divine and I have no idea what she is going to choose as moves, but we also have a lost ancient weapon that can identify a monster’s weakness and immediately cause armor-ignoring harm, can be used by any character, can only be used 3 times, and uses up luck each time. I want whoever finds that weapon to want to use it when we get to the really tough monsters, not just say “Oh, hey, the Divine will take care of that.”
Aaron Dalton – So this did happen – my new player chose The Divine and chose Smite. You mentioned above that The Divine can’t naturally fly – however, since the player also chose Angel Wings as a move, how do I tell them they can’t fly up to meet a monster in battle? I expect that, being an angel, this character will think they CAN fly, but I need a way to make Smite a useful but not overpowered move. Thoughts?
Sa Sa You can always let the monster get away and use supernatural means plus minions to trap or hinder your Angel like on “Supernatural”. Maybe flying exposes the Angel to being captured by “Satan’s Lasso” or something. Maybe flying around and getting captured on cameras angers the Divine HQs and results in sanctions. Maybe using “Smite” causes small earthquakes that get larger every time its used. Why? That is another adventure!
Also Angel’s wings is a teleport according to how it’s written.
Joshua Schoeppner yes, but very limited. Angel can only transport herself without failure and only to places she has been before or where his mates are. It is not “nightcrawler” teleport ability.
I rally like this move, but it seems undone for me. I miss a way for the Angel to “hear” the pray of her mates in the case of need.
Mark Tygart what I ended up doing was tying overusing Smite to the Divine’s mission. When it became clear what the PTB were telling her about it, she backed off and started using it more sparingly. Thanks for the idea!